Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.
Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die. Thanks for the responses!
Bob
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board
To: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net, "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
Hi
Around here, assuming:
- You supply all the parts on full reels with
leaders - There is no hand assembly
work - You already have framed stencils
that are the correct size for their gear
You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials on
both sides
5) The boards are designed to
mount on their gear
6) Your parts and design
rules fit their gear and rules.
7) No
electrical test, visual inspect only.
8)
Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
replace it on your time.
You can get various places to look at a batch
for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
their
stencils figure $100 to $200 each.
If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
a bit of money. Shipping plus packing
always seems to be a bit expensive.
By far the best approach is to
get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
Then
do it in whatever arrays / panel size
they are set up for and all the other little details.
This all starts to make a lot
more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
hundred boards.
Even more so if it is a few
hundred boards a month, every month for a few years.
====
Some math:
120
parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine,
loading and unloading the machine, pulling
boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
validating everything ….. that’s an
afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
of down time
on the machine.
====
Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
buy your own pick and place machine ….
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
bob@evoria.net
wrote:
One more
related question before this topic dies, if you don't
mind. What about the other side of building: stuffing the
boards. My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
some custom work on the SMA connectors. Is there a service
out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
small orders at a reasonable price? Small is 10 boards.
Bob - AE6RV
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay cjaysharp@gmail.com
wrote:
Subject:
Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
To: "Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com,
"Nick Sayer" nsayer@kfu.com
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
Life is so much
easier
now, dirtypcb is a great
service, I have a pile of
boards here
from them which are far greater
quality
than anything I could
hope to
produce at home or even in the lab I used
to have.
They're also
better quality than any of
the local board houses I used in the
past.
Having said
that, I did hand
manufacture fifty
single sided boards from
photo laminate
to completed product in one
weekend
using a Dremel drill
press for
somewhere around four thousand holes and
hand soldering
every
component so it was definitely
possible
On 23 Jun
2016 00:01, "Nick
Sayer via
time-nuts" time-nuts@febo.com
wrote:
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an “advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. You can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt toaster oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / how tight pitch you want to deal with.
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.
Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die. Thanks for the responses!
Bob
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
On Thu, 6/23/16, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board
To: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net, "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
Hi
Around here, assuming:
- You supply all the parts on full reels with
leaders - There is no hand assembly
work - You already have framed stencils
that are the correct size for their gear
You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials on
both sides
5) The boards are designed to
mount on their gear
6) Your parts and design
rules fit their gear and rules.
7) No
electrical test, visual inspect only.
8)
Best effort only, If the part does not solder etc, you
replace it on your time.
You can get various places to look at a batch
for $500 to $1000. If your stencils !=
their
stencils figure $100 to $200 each.
If you want to ship things a ways, you can save
a bit of money. Shipping plus packing
always seems to be a bit expensive.
By far the best approach is to
get all of their rules before you start a board layout.
Then
do it in whatever arrays / panel size
they are set up for and all the other little details.
This all starts to make a lot
more sense to the local outfits when you are talking a few
hundred boards.
Even more so if it is a few
hundred boards a month, every month for a few years.
====
Some math:
120
parts on 10 boards is 1200 parts. A good machine will do
that in < 6 minutes. Setting up the machine,
loading and unloading the machine, pulling
boards on and off the machine, programming the whole thing,
validating everything ….. that’s an
afternoon’s worth of work (maybe more) and maybe an hour
of down time
on the machine.
====
Of course for a few thousand dollars you can
buy your own pick and place machine ….
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Bob Stewart
bob@evoria.net
wrote:
One more
related question before this topic dies, if you don't
mind. What about the other side of building: stuffing the
boards. My GPSDOs have about 120 parts per board, plus
some custom work on the SMA connectors. Is there a service
out there that will populate boards with SMT components for
small orders at a reasonable price? Small is 10 boards.
Bob - AE6RV
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
On Wed, 6/22/16, Clint Jay cjaysharp@gmail.com
wrote:
Subject:
Re: [time-nuts] RS232 / GPS interface/prototyping board
To: "Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com,
"Nick Sayer" nsayer@kfu.com
Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2016, 6:06 PM
Life is so much
easier
now, dirtypcb is a great
service, I have a pile of
boards here
from them which are far greater
quality
than anything I could
hope to
produce at home or even in the lab I used
to have.
They're also
better quality than any of
the local board houses I used in the
past.
Having said
that, I did hand
manufacture fifty
single sided boards from
photo laminate
to completed product in one
weekend
using a Dremel drill
press for
somewhere around four thousand holes and
hand soldering
every
component so it was definitely
possible
On 23 Jun
2016 00:01, "Nick
Sayer via
time-nuts" time-nuts@febo.com
wrote:
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today. You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads. So how to make small batches of
custom designs.
The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
at a time and work on small boards. The RapRap type 3d printers
don't cost much to build. A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
printer with a different nozzle. You can find people doing this on
other email lists that deal with robots
For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
I'll second this, and suggest you consider:
- Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.) - Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
experience. Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards. - You can only place a limited list of parts for a run. If you have
one more part than the machine will accomodate, its a second (or
third, or fourth pass.) - They are all high maintenance in addition to requiring tuning. A lot
of the maintenance is based on calendar, not operation time. Even
and idle machine requires time if you actually want to use it
eventually. - Most are closed software loops. You work around their poor (or un)
documented formats and bugs. - There are really cheap small batch assembly houses coming online
that will do under 10 units. See Macrofab, PC:NG, Small Batch
Assembly are fairly quick turns.
If all you are doing is protos, hand placement, mylar solder stencils
(see Oshstencils and others) and a hacked toaster oven are a good
solution. The $500 Chinese reflow ovens seem to require more (re)work
that a $50 toaster oven. If you use stencils to place the solder, part
placement is as fast (or faster) than through hole parts. I have to use
a microscope. I'm shaky enough that may need to built some Waldoes
soon. ;-)
I just did six moderately complex boards (no fine pitch parts) and that
was 2-3 too many for me.
Solder stencils make all the difference.
Oz, in DFW
On 6/23/2016 6:21 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
You can indeed get a pick and place for under a thousand dollars. I wold not use one of them, but they do exist. It all depends on how much of an “advantage” you want over a hand place approach. A half way decent screen printer will run $500. Some sort of reflow setup will be a couple hundred. You can go cheap on the printer and get it down to $100 or so. A rebuilt toaster oven will run $20 or less. It all is a matter of how much hassle / how tight pitch you want to deal with.
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:38 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.
Anyway, I've had my say and we can let this die. Thanks for the responses!
Bob
--
mailto:oz@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
We use
"Advanced Assembly" in Colorado for prototype assembly.
http://aa-pcbassembly.com/
For just one or two boards, it is faster to hand solder the parts, as long
as no BGA's or similar.
If complex soldering like BGAs, or more than three boards, we use a proto
assembly house.
--- Graham
==
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com
wrote:
This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today. You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads. So how to make small batches of
custom designs.
The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
at a time and work on small boards. The RapRap type 3d printers
don't cost much to build. A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
printer with a different nozzle. You can find people doing this on
other email lists that deal with robots
For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long
it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to
become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny
electronics business.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the board, it has a very
limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your soldering quality can
suffer quite a bit.
Bob
On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:
This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today. You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads. So how to make small batches of
custom designs.
The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to let it run very slow using only one or two really of parts
at a time and work on small boards. The RapRap type 3d printers
don't cost much to build. A pick and place is not much more than a 3d
printer with a different nozzle. You can find people doing this on
other email lists that deal with robots
For most projects these SBCs (arduino, Pi 3, BBB,...) allow you to
build almost anything without need of a custom PCB.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Thanks Bob et al,
This is about what I expected, but I had to ask. I wonder how long it'll take for that several thousand bucks for a pick-n-place machine to become a couple hundred? That would be the final hurdle for the tiny electronics business.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 6/23/2016 9:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the board, it has a very
limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your soldering quality can
suffer quite a bit.
Bob
For most of the paste formulations I've had no trouble with several
hours of working time. So you need to get at it, but really don't end up
hurting yourself, but can't leave it overnight. .
--
mailto:oz@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
Oz-in-DFW lists@ozindfw.net wrote:
- Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.) - Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
experience. Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
The trick is to use semi-manual pick&place machines for low volumes.
Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the hobbyist
market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
the production volumes of these machines will for sure rise and thus become
cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick&place systems
build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite good.
e.g http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1
Solder stencils make all the difference.
Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
or those with fine pitch.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
Hi:
For IC pitches of 0.050" (1.27mm) hand soldering works fine, even for my vision when a stereo microscope is used.
Elmer's glue to hold the chips is place.
Getting boards from ExpressPCB that have solder mask helps to prevent bridging.
Here is an example:
http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a 3-d printer.
Don
On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
Oz-in-DFW lists@ozindfw.net wrote:
- Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.) - Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
experience. Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
The trick is to use semi-manual pick&place machines for low volumes.
Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the hobbyist
market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
the production volumes of these machines will for sure rise and thus become
cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick&place systems
build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite good.
e.g http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1
Solder stencils make all the difference.
Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
or those with fine pitch.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"
Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address: POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com http://www.lightningforensics.com/
www.sixmilesystems.com http://www.sixmilesystems.com/