A more detailed explanation of what is happening: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > A more detailed explanation of what is happening: > > https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/ This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway clocks are still running properly. -- Pete Stephenson

-------- In message <1520456485.3091982.1295242984.442B4153@webmail.messagingengine.com>, Pete Stephenson writes: >On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote: >> A more detailed explanation of what is happening: >> >> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/ > >This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for future discussions... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

		Attila Kinali

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 22:01:25 +0100 Pete Stephenson <pete@heypete.com> wrote: > Fortunately the Swiss rail system doesn't, as far as I know, use powerline > frequency for timekeeping, even at remote stations, so all the railway > clocks are still running properly. They used to have a central HBG receiver at all train stations, with a few exceptions where reception was bad (there, they got a special permission to use DCF77 instead). I have no idea what they use these days for synchronization. Attila Kinali -- <JaberWorky> The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates throw DARK chocolate at you.

Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. > Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for future discussions... > Does that help? < https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/album-72157662535945536/         > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to 4Vpp. Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the middle of the night after all. They have to catch up. BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This weekend I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, so I can enforce quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in the 89441A. One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be MTI-260s on my oscillator carrier board. Have a good night, Gerhard

A picture of my own microwaves oven, this 8th of march, near Paris, France . The time reference is a DCF77 radio controlled clock. Jean-Louis Rault Le 07/03/2018 à 21:09, Poul-Henning Kamp a écrit : > -------- > In message <1520456485.3091982.1295242984.442B4153@webmail.messagingengine.com>, Pete Stephenson > writes: >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Mark Sims wrote: >>> A more detailed explanation of what is happening: >>> >>> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/ >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. > Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for future discussions... >

Hi, from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. Cheers Detlef Schücker DD4WV (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> > An: time-nuts@febo.com > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> > > > > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > > > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. > > Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for > future discussions... > > > Does that help? > > < > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/ > album-72157662535945536/ >         > > > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to 4Vpp. > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the > middle of the night after all. > They have to catch up. > > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This > weekend > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. > > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, > so I can enforce > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. > > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in > the 89441A. > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be > MTI-260s on > my oscillator carrier board. > > Have a good night, > Gerhard > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

If the drift had been 5 or 15 seconds over a few days, sure, "catching up" is right. But after two months of accumulated 7 minutes deviation, surely everyone has already manually adjusted their clocks? And in the process of the grid "catching up" won't everyones clocks now be 7 minutes fast after the catch-up? Tim N3QE On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:50 AM, <d.schuecker@avm.de> wrote: > > Hi, > > from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe > lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of > the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. > > I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I > get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. > > Cheers > Detlef Schücker > DD4WV > > (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) > > "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: > > > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> > > An: time-nuts@febo.com > > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 > > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks > > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> > > > > > > > > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > > > > > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display > > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes > > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. > > > Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for > > future discussions... > > > > > Does that help? > > > > < > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/ > > album-72157662535945536/ > > > > > > > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to > 4Vpp. > > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the > > middle of the night after all. > > They have to catch up. > > > > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This > > weekend > > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. > > > > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. > > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, > > so I can enforce > > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. > > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. > > > > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in > > the 89441A. > > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be > > MTI-260s on > > my oscillator carrier board. > > > > Have a good night, > > Gerhard > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

Hello all, Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year: http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains-2018.html This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains cycle using NTP for reference. Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted. Regards, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM) On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker@avm.de wrote: > > Hi, > > from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe > lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of > the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. > > I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I > get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. > > Cheers > Detlef Schücker > DD4WV > > (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) > > "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: > > > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> > > An: time-nuts@febo.com > > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 > > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks > > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> > > > > > > > > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > > > > > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display > > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes > > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. > > > Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for > > future discussions... > > > > > Does that help? > > > > < > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/ > > album-72157662535945536/ > >         > > > > > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to > 4Vpp. > > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the > > middle of the night after all. > > They have to catch up. > > > > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This > > weekend > > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. > > > > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. > > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, > > so I can enforce > > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. > > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. > > > > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in > > the 89441A. > > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be > > MTI-260s on > > my oscillator carrier board. > > > > Have a good night, > > Gerhard > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the technical or lay person, give a reason. David N1HAC On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote: > Hello all, > > Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and > for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year: > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0 > > This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains > cycle using NTP for reference. > > Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted. > > Regards, > Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM) > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker@avm.de wrote: >> Hi, >> >> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe >> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of >> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. >> >> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I >> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. >> >> Cheers >> Detlef Schücker >> DD4WV >> >> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) >> >> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: >> >>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> >>> An: time-nuts@febo.com >>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 >>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks >>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: >>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. >>>> Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for >>> future discussions... >>> Does that help? >>> >>> < >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D&reserved=0 >>> album-72157662535945536/ >>>         > >>> >>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to >> 4Vpp. >>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the >>> middle of the night after all. >>> They have to catch up. >>> >>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This >>> weekend >>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. >>> >>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. >>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, >>> so I can enforce >>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. >>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. >>> >>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in >>> the 89441A. >>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be >>> MTI-260s on >>> my oscillator carrier board. >>> >>> Have a good night, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 > and follow the instructions there.