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Please forgive that I am a lurker and have not contributed. But this last thread caught my eye since I monitor the time error for the Western Grid here in the US. Over the last year the usual variation is very much the same as in David's graph for 2017 -- i.e., +/- 30 seconds. The power folks worldwide must all read the same journals. There was a time, before October, 2015, that the TE here was kept to +/- 10 sec (and years before that even closer). Maintaining tight TE, however, threatens the stability of load/source balancing. And there are fewer and fewer synchronous clocks in use. If anyone is interested I have data (every minute) for the last two years. Andy Backus Bellingham, WA ________________________________ From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> on behalf of David G. McGaw <david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:01 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and therefore the clocks to slow down? None of the reports, either for the technical or lay person, give a reason. David N1HAC On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote: > Hello all, > > Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and > for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year: > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0 > > This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains > cycle using NTP for reference. > > Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted. > > Regards, > Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM) > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker@avm.de wrote: >> Hi, >> >> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe >> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of >> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. >> >> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I >> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. >> >> Cheers >> Detlef Schücker >> DD4WV >> >> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) >> >> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: >> >>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> >>> An: time-nuts@febo.com >>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 >>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks >>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: >>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. >>>> Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for >>> future discussions... >>> Does that help? >>> >>> < >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D&reserved=0 >>> album-72157662535945536/ >>> > >>> >>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to >> 4Vpp. >>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the >>> middle of the night after all. >>> They have to catch up. >>> >>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This >>> weekend >>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. >>> >>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. >>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, >>> so I can enforce >>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. >>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. >>> >>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in >>> the 89441A. >>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be >>> MTI-260s on >>> my oscillator carrier board. >>> >>> Have a good night, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7d60c944b6e44c48ed8a08d58583dac9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636561723712449411&sdata=pP2mfjPnlnMvtG%2BcJ2XAAsmlx1aSyersTeWJi%2B3BiDE%3D&reserved=0 and follow the instructions there.

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When there is more demand than generation, the frequency of the grid drops. My understanding is that one particular country is pulling more from the grid than they are generating, and for political/and or financial reasons which are a bit unclear, noone is willing to generate enough power to balance the grid. For most of the generators, the most likely reason is probably because they aren't wanting to generate the power for free. In essence this power is being stolen from the grid and not being returned, causing the frequency variation. On Mar 9, 2018 12:06 AM, "David G. McGaw" <david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> wrote: Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and therefore the clocks to slow down? None of the reports, either for the technical or lay person, give a reason. David N1HAC On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote: > Hello all, > > Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and > for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year: > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:% > 2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains- > 2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth. > edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31 > ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HO > kxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0 > > > This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains > cycle using NTP for reference. > > Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef > posted. > > Regards, > Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM) > > > > On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker@avm.de wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe >> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of >> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems. >> >> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I >> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz. >> >> Cheers >> Detlef Schücker >> DD4WV >> >> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf) >> >> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55: >> >> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> >>> An: time-nuts@febo.com >>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41 >>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks >>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: >>> >>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display >>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes >>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me. >>>>> >>>> Can you get a picture of this ? It would be wonderful to have for >>>> >>> future discussions... >>> Does that help? >>> >>> < >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% >>> 2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F3887075044 >>> 0%2Fin%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth. >>> edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31 >>> ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=tOoi% >>> 2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> album-72157662535945536/ >>> > >>> >>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to >>> >> 4Vpp. >> >>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the >>> middle of the night after all. >>> They have to catch up. >>> >>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This >>> weekend >>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state. >>> >>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic. >>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line, >>> so I can enforce >>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc. >>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays. >>> >>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in >>> the 89441A. >>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be >>> MTI-260s on >>> my oscillator carrier board. >>> >>> Have a good night, >>> Gerhard >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% >> 2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime- >> nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d >> 08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446 >> f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4r >> qFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >> >> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protect >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin% >> 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g. >> mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C9 >> 95b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977 >> &sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protect > ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin% > 2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g. > mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C9 > 95b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977 > &sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4rqFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0 > > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m ailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

Well, if you don't pay your bills, the power company can't afford the fuel required to keep up with demand. Stability of the system frequency requires a balance between supply and demand. If the demand exceeds supply then the generators must slow down. In a synchronous network, all generators must slow down to reduce strain on the network. If strain is exceeded, circuit breakers pop until the demand equals supply. So if a part of the network has to slow down from lack of fuel, then the entire network has to slow down to prevent popping circuit breakers until demand power equals supply. Hope that helps, Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David G. McGaw Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the technical or lay person, give a reason. David N1HAC

There's a fairly thorough explanation here (especially the long article that begins with a map) https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/360328/serbia-kosovo-power-grid-row-delays-european-clocks-why On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 7:26 AM, Bill Hawkins <bill.iaxs@pobox.com> wrote: > Well, if you don't pay your bills, the power company can't afford the > fuel required to keep up with demand. > Stability of the system frequency requires a balance between supply and > demand. If the demand exceeds supply then the generators must slow down. > In a synchronous network, all generators must slow down to reduce strain > on the network. If strain is exceeded, circuit breakers pop until the > demand equals supply. So if a part of the network has to slow down from > lack of fuel, then the entire network has to slow down to prevent > popping circuit breakers until demand power equals supply. > > Hope that helps, > Bill Hawkins > > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David > G. McGaw > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 11:01 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks > > Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and > therefore the clocks to slow down? None of the reports, either for the > technical or lay person, give a reason. > > David N1HAC > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >