You do what you can do... ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/8/2016 1:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having > a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. > > I strongly disagree. > > Tim N3QE >

Tim wrote: > I strongly disagree. > > What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors > * * * in the vicinity of your lab equipment. * * * not even necessarily in the > same room * * * every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF > develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a > sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these > transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's > disrupting your measurement. > > If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of > course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a > power glitch. Both theory and experience show that this is not the usual case. (Note that certain grounding problems can make it appear initially as if there are magnetic-field problems, but closer analysis reveals that incorrect grounding is the actual cause.) The magnetic fields you describe are very localized and diminish rapidly as you move away from the source. The shielding normally provided by a metal (or even metallized plastic) housing is plenty to prevent most problems of this nature, and moving extremely sensitive circuits a few inches to a few feet is generally enough to resolve any remaining issues. If magnetic fields were the main problem, it would be impossible to build and use stereo systems, televisions, telephones, and any sort of electronic device that monitors or controls anything. Every time the refrigerator started up, there would be a huge BANG through the stereo, TV, radio receivers, and telephone, and all of your shop electronics would go crazy. The usual problem is glitches on the on-site AC mains supply, and properly designed and installed on-line UPS systems do a very fine job of cleaning that up. Best regards, Charles

That has been my experience over the last 25 odd years... ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/8/2016 5:37 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: > The usual problem is glitches on the on-site AC mains supply, and > properly designed and installed on-line UPS systems do a very fine job > of cleaning that up. > > Best regards, > > Charles

I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work for removing power line glitches. They wouldn't do anything for voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though. Time to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess. On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:18:03 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Bob: > >A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. >http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP >http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg >The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of >it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. >This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer > >Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: >http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm >Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".

Hi If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and the C. Bob > On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: > > I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to > back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work > for removing power line glitches. They wouldn't do anything for > voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though. Time > to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess. > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:18:03 -0700, you wrote: > >> Hi Bob: >> >> A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. >> http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP >> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg >> The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of >> it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. >> This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer >> >> Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: >> http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm >> Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer". > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

And I will add a high voltage power resistor to limit the Q. On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:12:53 -0400, you wrote: >Hi > >If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and the C. > >Bob > >> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to >> back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work >> for removing power line glitches. They wouldn't do anything for >> voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though. Time >> to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess.

The minor down side is these resonant transformers acoustically hum and run hot. On the plus side they do clean up any kind of noise on the line. Rob, NC0B Sent from my iPad > On Jul 8, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net> wrote: > > > > Hi Bob: > > A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. > http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP > http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg > The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. > This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer > > Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: > http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm > Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer". > > -- > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.PRC68.com > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > The lesser of evils is still evil. > > -------- Original Message -------- >> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. >> >> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. >> So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? >> >> Bob - AE6RV >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> GFS GPSDO list: >> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > -- > If this email is spam, report it to > https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg5OTEwNzgwNDpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk >

Hi Yes indeed they do run a bit warm. You need a mounting location that gets them out of the way. Having them somewhere you can bump into them …. not good at all. The newer “toroid” designs are a bit quieter than the older versions. Bob > On Jul 9, 2016, at 2:41 AM, Rob Sherwood. <rob@nc0b.com> wrote: > > The minor down side is these resonant transformers acoustically hum and run hot. On the plus side they do clean up any kind of noise on the line. > Rob, NC0B > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jul 8, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Bob: >> >> A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. >> http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP >> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg >> The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. >> This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer >> >> Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: >> http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm >> Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer". >> >> -- >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.PRC68.com >> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html >> The lesser of evils is still evil. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >>> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. >>> >>> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. >>> So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? >>> >>> Bob - AE6RV >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> GFS GPSDO list: >>> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> >> -- >> If this email is spam, report it to >> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg5OTEwNzgwNDpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

if yo limit the Q you limit the effect also... by the way the Q is already limited by the ohmic resistance of your transformer coils. 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 7/8/2016 10:08 PM, David wrote: > And I will add a high voltage power resistor to limit the Q. > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:12:53 -0400, you wrote: > >> Hi >> >> If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and the C. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to >>> back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work >>> for removing power line glitches. They wouldn't do anything for >>> voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though. Time >>> to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12583 - Release Date: 07/08/16

Hi Bob: The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line frequency). I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack. http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing. My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen. Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY <https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY> I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html The lesser of evils is still evil. -------- Original Message -------- > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. > > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. > So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? > > Bob - AE6RV > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >