The home time-lab
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:45:02 -0700, you wrote:
Hi Bob:
The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line
frequency).
I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries
in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS
The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the
AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing.
My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen.
Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY
Was the Sola transformer under load when you ran the test? I thought
a minimum load was a requirement for proper operation. Maybe it is
time to get an online UPS or power conditioner but then you would not
need the constant voltage transformer.
Was the peak voltage still 170 volts? If so then maybe it does not
matter. Capacitive input loads and PFC power supplies should not
care.
I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made.
Ouch. That is not suppose to happen but apparently some switching
power supplies have problems with modified sine outputs even though
they should not.
I have been told a couple of times that PFC power supplies are even
more likely to have problems with modified sine inverters but I have
yet to find an in depth discussion of the problem. The PFC stage
should work with any input wave shape.
Hi Brooke,
Thanks for that info. I've got the important bits (PRS and GPSDOs) now hooked up to an APC Smart-UPS 700. What will happen when it goes to battery power, I don't know. I've been doing qualification testing on a new batch of GPSDOs, so I haven't had time to do any testing of power fails. And as luck would have it, we haven't had any stormy weather, so the power line seems to be stable. Another few hours of testing on this final unit and I'll hook up a scope, put on a pre-production unit, and pull the cord to see what it all looks like. Hopefully the switching supply wall warts will be happy with whatever they get.
I did get a Sola 1000VA unit, but I haven't hooked it in yet. I want to run it from 240VAC rather than from 120, so that means I need to pull a 240V line, and it's just too hot to be in the attic here in Texas.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
Hi Bob:
The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line
frequency).
I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries
in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS
The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the
AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing.
My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen.
Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY
I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.
I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?
Bob - AE6RV
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Hi David:
Yes, the computer, monitor, and DSL modem, switch, answering machine &Etc were connected.
I haven't remembered how to run the DSO in the short time the self test lasts.
AC VRMS line= 117, AC VRMS UPS = 114.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:45:02 -0700, you wrote:
Hi Bob:
The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line
frequency).
I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries
in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS
The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the
AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing.
My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen.
Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY
Was the Sola transformer under load when you ran the test? I thought
a minimum load was a requirement for proper operation. Maybe it is
time to get an online UPS or power conditioner but then you would not
need the constant voltage transformer.
Was the peak voltage still 170 volts? If so then maybe it does not
matter. Capacitive input loads and PFC power supplies should not
care.
I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made.
Ouch. That is not suppose to happen but apparently some switching
power supplies have problems with modified sine outputs even though
they should not.
I have been told a couple of times that PFC power supplies are even
more likely to have problems with modified sine inverters but I have
yet to find an in depth discussion of the problem. The PFC stage
should work with any input wave shape.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
That is interesting, since the Sola device has a to the line frequency
tuned tank circuit in it, thus the output should not have to many higher
harmonics and should look reasonable close to sinusoidal see here:
http://www.rdrelectronics.com/russ/jun16/vs2.PDF
73
K6UHN Alex
On 7/24/2016 4:23 PM, David wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:45:02 -0700, you wrote:
Hi Bob:
The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line
frequency).
I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries
in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS
The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the
AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing.
My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen.
Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY
Was the Sola transformer under load when you ran the test? I thought
a minimum load was a requirement for proper operation. Maybe it is
time to get an online UPS or power conditioner but then you would not
need the constant voltage transformer.
Was the peak voltage still 170 volts? If so then maybe it does not
matter. Capacitive input loads and PFC power supplies should not
care.
I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made.
Ouch. That is not suppose to happen but apparently some switching
power supplies have problems with modified sine outputs even though
they should not.
I have been told a couple of times that PFC power supplies are even
more likely to have problems with modified sine inverters but I have
yet to find an in depth discussion of the problem. The PFC stage
should work with any input wave shape.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7688 / Virus Database: 4627/12674 - Release Date: 07/24/16
The PFC stage needs a line frequency sinewave reference, if this is produced by attenuating the line input, then it may not function well with badly distorted line input waveforms (modified sine, square wave etc).Phase locking a sinewave to the line input may be a better approach.
Bruce
On Monday, 25 July 2016 11:44 AM, David <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:45:02 -0700, you wrote:
Hi Bob:
The Sola 500 VA transformer is specified to hole up the line voltage for 3 ms. (but not a half cycle of the line
frequency).
I've connected the Sola CVS transformer to the output of the APC RS1500 backup UPS. (needed to replace the 2 batteries
in the main unit and probably within a year the 4 batteries in the optional battery pack.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/PC.shtml#Backup_UPS
The Sola transformer is connected to the output of the RS1500. This will clean up any spikes or narrow drop outs on the
AC line since when the AC line is active the UPS does nothing.
My hope was that the transformer would clean up the modified square wave output of the UPS, but that does not happen.
Video of APC self test showing waveform on scope:https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY https://youtu.be/DLE0mzAt7KY
Was the Sola transformer under load when you ran the test? I thought
a minimum load was a requirement for proper operation. Maybe it is
time to get an online UPS or power conditioner but then you would not
need the constant voltage transformer.
Was the peak voltage still 170 volts? If so then maybe it does not
matter. Capacitive input loads and PFC power supplies should not
care.
I think the modified square wave killed my HP 6200 flat bed scanner. The best scanner I've used and no longer made.
Ouch. That is not suppose to happen but apparently some switching
power supplies have problems with modified sine outputs even though
they should not.
I have been told a couple of times that PFC power supplies are even
more likely to have problems with modified sine inverters but I have
yet to find an in depth discussion of the problem. The PFC stage
should work with any input wave shape.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Are there some reference designs you can point to where this is a
problem?
Because all of the application notes and references designs I have
checked so far have no requirements for input wave shape other than
peak and to a lessor extent RMS voltage. The input power factor
degrades with inputs which have higher frequency content but the
converter should not fail.
The input after the bridge rectifier is sampled by one control loop
which adjusts the duty cycle so that the input current is proportional
to input voltage (resistive) while a second slower control loop
adjusts the average input power to roughly regulate the output
voltage. The output voltage ripple mimics the input voltage waveform
for practical reasons.
If PFC power supplies have an issue with modified sine inverters, then
that would be a pretty big problem given how common they are.
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 00:51:36 +0000 (UTC), you wrote:
The PFC stage needs a line frequency sinewave reference, if this is produced by attenuating the line input, then it may not function well with badly distorted line input waveforms (modified sine, square wave etc).Phase locking a sinewave to the line input may be a better approach.
Bruce
Years ago I knew exactly how Sola regulators worked. That has faded, but
what remains is that the regulation was done by varying the saturation
of the core. That's why there is a slot in the laminations. I find it
hard to believe that a partially saturated core can produce zero
harmonics.
In any event, the LC circuit does not filter anything. Possibly the
circuit counteracts the change in saturation as the line voltage
changes. I wouldn't expect it to effect the high frequency components of
spikes.
Any power supply that has a diode bridge and capacitor to create DC only
draws power from the line at the voltage peaks, when the diodes become
forward biased. I don't know of any choke input supplies, as were used
to reduce the peak current of vacuum tube rectifiers.
I know nothing about power factor correction for a bridge and capacitor,
whether or not it is followed by a switching regulator.
Make of it what you will.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pummer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:29 PM
That is interesting, since the Sola device has a to the line frequency
tuned tank circuit in it, thus the output should not have to many higher
harmonics and should look reasonable close to sinusoidal see here:
http://www.rdrelectronics.com/russ/jun16/vs2.PDF
73, K6UHN Alex
The PFC power supply architecture I had in mind uses a flyback inverter to regulate the input rail voltage for the output dc-dc converter stage. The flyback stage peak current is modulated by a sinewave. A feedback loop adjusts the effective amplitude of this sinusoidal modulation to regulate the rail voltage. With some high frequency input filtering the input current is sinusoidal with low power factor.
I've seen a lot of equipment that's either unhappy or has even been damaged by use of modified sinewave inverters. Some equipment even fails to work with modified sine input although it subsequently works with a sinewave input. Laptop/notebook supplies in particular can be something of a lottery in this respect.
Machines with capacitor start motors also require a near sine wave input
Bruce
On Monday, 25 July 2016 2:17 PM, David <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote:
Are there some reference designs you can point to where this is a
problem?
Because all of the application notes and references designs I have
checked so far have no requirements for input wave shape other than
peak and to a lessor extent RMS voltage. The input power factor
degrades with inputs which have higher frequency content but the
converter should not fail.
The input after the bridge rectifier is sampled by one control loop
which adjusts the duty cycle so that the input current is proportional
to input voltage (resistive) while a second slower control loop
adjusts the average input power to roughly regulate the output
voltage. The output voltage ripple mimics the input voltage waveform
for practical reasons.
If PFC power supplies have an issue with modified sine inverters, then
that would be a pretty big problem given how common they are.
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 00:51:36 +0000 (UTC), you wrote:
The PFC stage needs a line frequency sinewave reference, if this is produced by attenuating the line input, then it may not function well with badly distorted line input waveforms (modified sine, square wave etc).Phase locking a sinewave to the line input may be a better approach.
Bruce
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you could bring the horse to the well.....
On 7/24/2016 7:36 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
Years ago I knew exactly how Sola regulators worked. That has faded, but
what remains is that the regulation was done by varying the saturation
of the core. That's why there is a slot in the laminations. I find it
hard to believe that a partially saturated core can produce zero
harmonics.
In any event, the LC circuit does not filter anything. Possibly the
circuit counteracts the change in saturation as the line voltage
changes. I wouldn't expect it to effect the high frequency components of
spikes.
Any power supply that has a diode bridge and capacitor to create DC only
draws power from the line at the voltage peaks, when the diodes become
forward biased. I don't know of any choke input supplies, as were used
to reduce the peak current of vacuum tube rectifiers.
I know nothing about power factor correction for a bridge and capacitor,
whether or not it is followed by a switching regulator.
Make of it what you will.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pummer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:29 PM
That is interesting, since the Sola device has a to the line frequency
tuned tank circuit in it, thus the output should not have to many higher
harmonics and should look reasonable close to sinusoidal see here:
http://www.rdrelectronics.com/russ/jun16/vs2.PDF
73, KJ6UHN Alex
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Version: 2016.0.7688 / Virus Database: 4627/12678 - Release Date: 07/25/16
Hi Bill:
I have links to the Sola patents at: http://www.prc68.com/I/Sola_CVS.html#Patents
The 1939 patent shows a single gap and the resonant circuit, but the current patent (number on Sola xformer label) shows
two gaps and the resonant circuit.
They specify up to a 3 ms dropout restoration which implies the amount of energy stored is enough to last that long.
A full time UPS (one where the line is converted to battery voltage then battery voltage is converted to a sine wave)
could be expected to have a clean output.
But a relay switched UPS, like mine, does nothing to the line waveform, so the Sola offers a lot of improvement.
Since the Sola does not help getting a sine waveform, it may be better to put it on the input since that might make
dropout detection more reliable?
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
Years ago I knew exactly how Sola regulators worked. That has faded, but
what remains is that the regulation was done by varying the saturation
of the core. That's why there is a slot in the laminations. I find it
hard to believe that a partially saturated core can produce zero
harmonics.
In any event, the LC circuit does not filter anything. Possibly the
circuit counteracts the change in saturation as the line voltage
changes. I wouldn't expect it to effect the high frequency components of
spikes.
Any power supply that has a diode bridge and capacitor to create DC only
draws power from the line at the voltage peaks, when the diodes become
forward biased. I don't know of any choke input supplies, as were used
to reduce the peak current of vacuum tube rectifiers.
I know nothing about power factor correction for a bridge and capacitor,
whether or not it is followed by a switching regulator.
Make of it what you will.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pummer
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:29 PM
That is interesting, since the Sola device has a to the line frequency
tuned tank circuit in it, thus the output should not have to many higher
harmonics and should look reasonable close to sinusoidal see here:
http://www.rdrelectronics.com/russ/jun16/vs2.PDF
73, K6UHN Alex
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