Empathy List Archives

BS

Bob Stewart

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 5:46 AM

Hi Clay,
Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem. They run on 12V and draw less than an amp. The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears that when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Clay Autery <cautery@montac.com>

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float
charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS...

ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to
power the load when on mains.

Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Clay, Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem. They run on 12V and draw less than an amp. The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears that when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Clay Autery <cautery@montac.com> To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS... ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to power the load when on mains. ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. > > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. > So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? > > Bob - AE6RV > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

D

David

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 8:28 AM

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:31:58 -0400, you wrote:

If you decide to go the UPS route, dont bother with anything that does not produce a sine wave
output. Modern power factor corrected stuff is a lot happier with sine waves than with weird looking
semi-square wave stuff.

Active power factor correction should not care about input wave shape
but it would not surprise me of there were poor designs which have
issues. What happens with these?

By far the most expensive gear is the stuff that runs full time. You take the AC line and convert it to DC.
That plus a battery supply the DC to sine wave converter. Everything downstream runs off of the DC to
sine wave converter all the time. Since it always supplies the gear, it needs to be big enough to supply
whatever surge the gear requires. That tends to make them a bit large

I have a couple of used but refurbished online UPSes and they work
great. I picked them up from either www.upsforless.com or
www.refurbups.com. This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more than I paid although
about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx

None of the UPS systems take care of all issues. There are things like RFI and ground isolation that
still could be an issue. To get into the next layer of that onion you go with stuff like faraday cages and
fairly big filters.

Neutral and/or common mode filtering or the lack of it may be the
biggest problem. A couple of years ago there was a change in UL
regulations for UPSes concerning how the neutral output is wired which
may have affected this:

http://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA156549/

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:31:58 -0400, you wrote: >If you decide to go the UPS route, dont bother with anything that does not produce a sine wave >output. Modern power factor corrected stuff is a lot happier with sine waves than with weird looking >semi-square wave stuff. Active power factor correction should not care about input wave shape but it would not surprise me of there were poor designs which have issues. What happens with these? >By far the most expensive gear is the stuff that runs full time. You take the AC line and convert it to DC. >That plus a battery supply the DC to sine wave converter. Everything downstream runs off of the DC to >sine wave converter all the time. Since it always supplies the gear, it needs to be big enough to supply >whatever surge the gear requires. That tends to make them a bit large I have a couple of used but refurbished online UPSes and they work great. I picked them up from either www.upsforless.com or www.refurbups.com. This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do not know how suitable it would be and it is more than I paid although about twice as powerful: http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx >None of the UPS systems take care of all issues. There are things like RFI and ground isolation that >still *could* be an issue. To get into the next layer of that onion you go with stuff like faraday cages and >fairly big filters. Neutral and/or common mode filtering or the lack of it may be the biggest problem. A couple of years ago there was a change in UL regulations for UPSes concerning how the neutral output is wired which may have affected this: http://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA156549/

CS

Charles Steinmetz

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 3:23 PM

David wrote:

This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more
than I paid although about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx

I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and
recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous
duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend
the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive
ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend
on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down).

That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY
batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese
batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can
get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!].
Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine
from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer].

I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than
bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and
well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic
black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and
melted plastic from the batteries). The UPS itself suffered no damage.

Best regards,

Charles

David wrote: > This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do > not know how suitable it would be and it is more > than I paid although about twice as powerful: > > http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down). That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer]. I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and melted plastic *from the batteries*). The UPS itself suffered no damage. Best regards, Charles

CA

Clay Autery

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 3:52 PM

Bob,

I'm new to the time nut thing... What is the 5370? Full nomenclature
so I can read up on it.

I don't know how much power it draws, but I've ted to run all my HAM
(including the amps), networking, home theater, lab equipment, et al.
from appropriately sized batteries and charge the batts with linears.
Mostly going to use LFP batts for the longevity and cell balancing.

I don't like weird crap creeping into my data either... be it instrument
or radio... I'm building a "quiet zone".

Did the survey on JUST my house and found 53 SMPSs, and a bunch of AC
electrical wiring "mistakes", mostly grounds terminated at both ends, et
al...

73,

Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/8/2016 12:46 AM, Bob Stewart wrote:

Hi Clay,
Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem. They run on 12V and draw less than an amp. The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears that when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

   From: Clay Autery <cautery@montac.com>

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float
charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS...

ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to
power the load when on mains.

Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Bob, I'm new to the time nut thing... What is the 5370? Full nomenclature so I can read up on it. I don't know how much power it draws, but I've ted to run all my HAM (including the amps), networking, home theater, lab equipment, et al. from appropriately sized batteries and charge the batts with linears. Mostly going to use LFP batts for the longevity and cell balancing. I don't like weird crap creeping into my data either... be it instrument or radio... I'm building a "quiet zone". Did the survey on JUST my house and found 53 SMPSs, and a bunch of AC electrical wiring "mistakes", mostly grounds terminated at both ends, et al... 73, ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/8/2016 12:46 AM, Bob Stewart wrote: > Hi Clay, > Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem. They run on 12V and draw less than an amp. The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears that when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data. > Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > > From: Clay Autery <cautery@montac.com> > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float > charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS... > > ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to > power the load when on mains. > > ______________________ > Clay Autery, KY5G > MONTAC Enterprises > (318) 518-1389 > > On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: >> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. >> >> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. >> So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? >> >> Bob - AE6RV >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> GFS GPSDO list: >> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

D

David

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 3:56 PM

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:23:39 -0400, you wrote:

David wrote:

This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more
than I paid although about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx

I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and
recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous
duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend
the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive
ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend
on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down).

Online or double conversion UPSes all have to be rated for continuous
duty.

I have an old Powerware 9120 which I bought new, two refurbished
Powerware Prestige EXTs, and two refurbished Leibert GTX2-700s. The
Prestige EXTs are interesting because they can operate as line
conditioners without the batteries. These all support external
batteries so I wonder if that is a ubiquitous feature with online
UPSes.

That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY
batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese
batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can
get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!].
Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine
from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer].

I am actually on the hunt for replacement batteries now so thanks for
the tip; I will check them out.

I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than
bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and
well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic
black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and
melted plastic from the batteries). The UPS itself suffered no damage.

The local HAM club has been looking for sine wave UPSes and inverters
which produce minimal RFI without much luck.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:23:39 -0400, you wrote: >David wrote: > >> This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do >> not know how suitable it would be and it is more >> than I paid although about twice as powerful: >> >> http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx > >I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and >recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous >duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend >the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive >ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend >on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down). Online or double conversion UPSes all have to be rated for continuous duty. I have an old Powerware 9120 which I bought new, two refurbished Powerware Prestige EXTs, and two refurbished Leibert GTX2-700s. The Prestige EXTs are interesting because they can operate as line conditioners without the batteries. These all support external batteries so I wonder if that is a ubiquitous feature with online UPSes. >That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY >batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese >batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can >get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. >Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine >from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer]. I am actually on the hunt for replacement batteries now so thanks for the tip; I will check them out. >I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than >bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and >well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic >black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and >melted plastic *from the batteries*). The UPS itself suffered no damage. The local HAM club has been looking for sine wave UPSes and inverters which produce minimal RFI without much luck.

BC

Brooke Clarke

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 5:18 PM

Hi Bob:

A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1.
http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of
it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.
This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer

Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

-------- Original Message --------

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Bob: A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer". -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html The lesser of evils is still evil. -------- Original Message -------- > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. > > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. > So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? > > Bob - AE6RV > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

BS

Bob Stewart

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 5:39 PM

Hi Brooke,
Now that looks like it has promise. I had forgotten about those. I see a big selection on ebay. Maybe I can find one large enough that doesn't have a large price.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net>

To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bob:

A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1.
http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of
it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.
This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer

Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

-------- Original Message --------

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Brooke, Now that looks like it has promise. I had forgotten about those. I see a big selection on ebay. Maybe I can find one large enough that doesn't have a large price. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------- AE6RV.com GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Brooke Clarke <brooke@pacific.net> To: Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net>; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Hi Bob: A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first computer, See Fig 1. http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device. This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA: http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer". -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html The lesser of evils is still evil. -------- Original Message -------- > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. > > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. > So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? > > Bob - AE6RV > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

MS

Mark Spencer

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 6:18 PM

I also have had good results with various APC UPS systems.

I typically have to replace the batteries in my UPS's and my stand alone backup batteries every 5 to 7 years or so. Units such as the HP105B and FTS1050 that feature backup DC power inputs simplify the provision of long term backup power in my experience.

Last summer we had a two day power outage when I was away (so my generator sitting in the garage was of no use.) My 100 amp hour battery system kept my HP105B and FTS1050 running while everything else lost power. On occasion I've run my BVA from the battery system as well. Using my HP5370's I've never been able to detect a difference in performance of my OCXO's running on battery power vs AC line power (or DC supplied from an HP linear supply in the case of the BVA.)

All the best
Mark Spencer

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 8, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com wrote:

David wrote:

This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more
than I paid although about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx

I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down).

That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer].

I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and melted plastic from the batteries). The UPS itself suffered no damage.

Best regards,

Charles

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I also have had good results with various APC UPS systems. I typically have to replace the batteries in my UPS's and my stand alone backup batteries every 5 to 7 years or so. Units such as the HP105B and FTS1050 that feature backup DC power inputs simplify the provision of long term backup power in my experience. Last summer we had a two day power outage when I was away (so my generator sitting in the garage was of no use.) My 100 amp hour battery system kept my HP105B and FTS1050 running while everything else lost power. On occasion I've run my BVA from the battery system as well. Using my HP5370's I've never been able to detect a difference in performance of my OCXO's running on battery power vs AC line power (or DC supplied from an HP linear supply in the case of the BVA.) All the best Mark Spencer Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 8, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> wrote: > > David wrote: > >> This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do >> not know how suitable it would be and it is more >> than I paid although about twice as powerful: >> >> http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx > > I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and recommend them highly. The conversion engines are rated for continuous duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down). > > That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found. I get mine from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer]. > > I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than bad, generic black Chinese batteries. The APC supplies are rugged and well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and melted plastic *from the batteries*). The UPS itself suffered no damage. > > Best regards, > > Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

TS

Tim Shoppa

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 6:27 PM

Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having
a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment.

I strongly disagree.

What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors
(e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a
completely different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the
same room but maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an
inductive load, every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF
develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a
sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these
transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's
disrupting your measurement.

If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of
course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a
power glitch.

Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a
few hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for
the DC batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-).

Tim N3QE

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my
testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of
the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a
long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was
nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The
preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the
lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I
suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has
been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even
understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions
seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the
mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s
and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be
prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to
somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests
or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on
power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. I strongly disagree. What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors (e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a completely different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the same room but maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an inductive load, every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's disrupting your measurement. If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a power glitch. Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a few hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for the DC batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-). Tim N3QE On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net> wrote: > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my > testing. > > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of > the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a > long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was > nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The > preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the > lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I > suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has > been power-grid related. > So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even > understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions > seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the > mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s > and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be > prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to > somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests > or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on > power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? > > Bob - AE6RV > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

BS

Bob Stewart

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 6:53 PM

Hi Tim,
I've learned a lot from the responses to my original post. I had almost come to the conclusion that a UPS wasn't going to do it for me before I started this. Unfortunately, I can't afford to have a Generac running 24/7, so I was hoping for alternatives. The idea of an inverter type system sounds good in theory. The cost and complications were a concern. It's probably more of a case of "fear of the unknown" than anything else. But, I was uncomfortable with actually going out on a limb and putting one together. So, I ordered a 1KVA Sola constant voltage transformer. With any luck, it'll do enough that my testing will settle down. If not, then I'm going to add a power-line monitor of the type using a small transformer and a sound card. That would identify times where tests weren't reliable. And that should be enough.

Thanks to everyone who posted. I certainly got my money's worth!
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@gmail.com>

To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment.
I strongly disagree.
What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors (e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a completely different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the same room but maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an inductive load, every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's disrupting your measurement.
If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a power glitch.
Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a few hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for the DC batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-).
Tim N3QE
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Tim, I've learned a lot from the responses to my original post. I had almost come to the conclusion that a UPS wasn't going to do it for me before I started this. Unfortunately, I can't afford to have a Generac running 24/7, so I was hoping for alternatives. The idea of an inverter type system sounds good in theory. The cost and complications were a concern. It's probably more of a case of "fear of the unknown" than anything else. But, I was uncomfortable with actually going out on a limb and putting one together. So, I ordered a 1KVA Sola constant voltage transformer. With any luck, it'll do enough that my testing will settle down. If not, then I'm going to add a power-line monitor of the type using a small transformer and a sound card. That would identify times where tests weren't reliable. And that should be enough. Thanks to everyone who posted. I certainly got my money's worth! Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------- AE6RV.com GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@gmail.com> To: Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net>; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment. I strongly disagree. What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors (e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a completely different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the same room but maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an inductive load, every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's disrupting your measurement. If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a power glitch. Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a few hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for the DC batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-). Tim N3QE On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net> wrote: I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my testing. I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the two 10MHz output channels. In the middle of the night, there was a long series of 35ns pops in the phase data. Strangely enough, there was nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved. The preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut down. So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related. So, what to do? I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand enough to waste my money on a bad one. The two big questions seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave". Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims? Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line transients? Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending data? From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts. Should I have been paying more attention? Bob - AE6RV ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

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The home time-lab

Bob - AE6RV

Bob - AE6RV