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PD

Pieter-Tjerk de Boer

Mon, Mar 6, 2017 6:46 PM

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote:

That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF.

Average phase and frequency deviation is
zero over 200msec (see link above for details)

This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the
time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but
also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second.
The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase
or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire
700 ms block.
Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing
format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in practice
it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be cancelled
for use as a frequency reference.

I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/

Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote: > That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF. > Average phase and frequency deviation is > zero over 200msec (see link above for details) This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second. The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire 700 ms block. Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in practice it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be cancelled for use as a frequency reference. I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/ Regards, Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

PS

paul swed

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 1:19 AM

I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF
using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the
US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a
comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW
power level like TDF.

Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio to
see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second phase.
Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did not
seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of
Pieters SDR radio.

So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer <ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl

wrote:

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote:

That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF.

Average phase and frequency deviation is
zero over 200msec (see link above for details)

This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the
time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but
also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second.
The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase
or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire
700 ms block.
Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing
format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in practice
it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be cancelled
for use as a frequency reference.

I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/

Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW power level like TDF. Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio to see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second phase. Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did not seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of Pieters SDR radio. So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer <ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl > wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote: > > > That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF. > > > Average phase and frequency deviation is > > zero over 200msec (see link above for details) > > This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the > time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but > also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second. > The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase > or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire > 700 ms block. > Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing > format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in practice > it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be cancelled > for use as a frequency reference. > > I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at > http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/ > > Regards, > Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

PS

paul swed

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 1:30 AM

A bit more reading if you block the phase comparison from -50ms to 150ms of
the tick you get a 0 carrier phase no modulation. That also explains why I
thought I could here some sort of phase modulation because there is.
So as an example if you use a GPS tick its really simple to block the phase
changes and only measure the 0 phase carrier. Essentially a 200 ms carrier
gap per second.
Thats quite a clean format you have to work with.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:19 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:

I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF
using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the
US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a
comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW
power level like TDF.

Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio to
see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second phase.
Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did not
seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of
Pieters SDR radio.

So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer <
ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl> wrote:

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote:

That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF.

Average phase and frequency deviation is
zero over 200msec (see link above for details)

This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the
time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but
also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second.
The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase
or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire
700 ms block.
Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing
format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in
practice
it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be
cancelled
for use as a frequency reference.

I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/

Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

A bit more reading if you block the phase comparison from -50ms to 150ms of the tick you get a 0 carrier phase no modulation. That also explains why I thought I could here some sort of phase modulation because there is. So as an example if you use a GPS tick its really simple to block the phase changes and only measure the 0 phase carrier. Essentially a 200 ms carrier gap per second. Thats quite a clean format you have to work with. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:19 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: > I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF > using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the > US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a > comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW > power level like TDF. > > Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio to > see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second phase. > Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did not > seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of > Pieters SDR radio. > > So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer < > ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl> wrote: > >> >> On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote: >> >> > That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF. >> >> > Average phase and frequency deviation is >> > zero over 200msec (see link above for details) >> >> This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the >> time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but >> also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second. >> The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase >> or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire >> 700 ms block. >> Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing >> format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in >> practice >> it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be >> cancelled >> for use as a frequency reference. >> >> I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at >> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/ >> >> Regards, >> Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >

PS

paul swed

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 3:35 AM

Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking
to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation
since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more
for all bits.
Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz.
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:30 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:

A bit more reading if you block the phase comparison from -50ms to 150ms
of the tick you get a 0 carrier phase no modulation. That also explains why
I thought I could here some sort of phase modulation because there is.
So as an example if you use a GPS tick its really simple to block the
phase changes and only measure the 0 phase carrier. Essentially a 200 ms
carrier gap per second.
Thats quite a clean format you have to work with.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:19 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:

I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF
using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the
US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a
comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW
power level like TDF.

Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio
to see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second
phase. Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did
not seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of
Pieters SDR radio.

So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer <
ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl> wrote:

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote:

That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF.

Average phase and frequency deviation is
zero over 200msec (see link above for details)

This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the
time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but
also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second.
The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase
or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire
700 ms block.
Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined
framing
format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in
practice
it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be
cancelled
for use as a frequency reference.

I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at
http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/

Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more for all bits. Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. Regards Paul On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:30 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: > A bit more reading if you block the phase comparison from -50ms to 150ms > of the tick you get a 0 carrier phase no modulation. That also explains why > I thought I could here some sort of phase modulation because there is. > So as an example if you use a GPS tick its really simple to block the > phase changes and only measure the 0 phase carrier. Essentially a 200 ms > carrier gap per second. > Thats quite a clean format you have to work with. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:19 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be TDF >> using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in the >> US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a >> comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 MW >> power level like TDF. >> >> Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio >> to see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second >> phase. Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it did >> not seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator of >> Pieters SDR radio. >> >> So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts. >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer < >> ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote: >>> >>> > That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF. >>> >>> > Average phase and frequency deviation is >>> > zero over 200msec (see link above for details) >>> >>> This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the >>> time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but >>> also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second. >>> The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase >>> or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire >>> 700 ms block. >>> Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined >>> framing >>> format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in >>> practice >>> it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be >>> cancelled >>> for use as a frequency reference. >>> >>> I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at >>> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/ >>> >>> Regards, >>> Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> >

IY

Iain Young

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 10:04 AM

On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote:

Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking
to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation
since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more
for all bits.
Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz.

You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to
find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is
over-running, or just extended maintenance

Iain

On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: > Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking > to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation > since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more > for all bits. > Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is over-running, or just extended maintenance Iain

PS

paul swed

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 2:10 PM

Thanks
I have a sense Tdf is a big question
But it's pretty strong here

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young iain@g7iii.net wrote:

On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote:

Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking

to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase
modulation
since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or
more
for all bits.
Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz.

You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to
find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is
over-running, or just extended maintenance

Iain

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Thanks I have a sense Tdf is a big question But it's pretty strong here On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: > > Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking >> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase >> modulation >> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or >> more >> for all bits. >> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. >> > > You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to > find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is > over-running, or just extended maintenance > > > Iain > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

IY

Iain Young

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 4:04 PM

Hey Paul,

My apologies, false alarm, it returned about mid-day French time.

I guess they had some extended maintenance work to do, or something
that needed daylight

Iain

On 07/03/17 14:10, paul swed wrote:

Thanks
I have a sense Tdf is a big question
But it's pretty strong here

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young iain@g7iii.net wrote:

On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote:

Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking

to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase
modulation
since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or
more
for all bits.
Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz.

You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to
find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is
over-running, or just extended maintenance

Iain

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hey Paul, My apologies, false alarm, it returned about mid-day French time. I guess they had some extended maintenance work to do, or something that needed daylight Iain On 07/03/17 14:10, paul swed wrote: > Thanks > I have a sense Tdf is a big question > But it's pretty strong here > > On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > >> On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: >> >> Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking >>> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase >>> modulation >>> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or >>> more >>> for all bits. >>> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. >>> >> >> You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to >> find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is >> over-running, or just extended maintenance >> >> >> Iain >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

PS

paul swed

Tue, Mar 7, 2017 5:52 PM

Gilles
I went back over the starting thread and believe your home brew oscillator
may prevent you from getting all of the accuracy out of TDF.
As I was thinking about a TRF radio and locking the question I arrived at
is how do you turn 162KHz into something useful like 100 KHz 5 MHz or 10
MHz??.
By getting to standard references there are many very good oven oscillators
available.
Regards
Paul.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:35 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote: