Paul the off-air standards I have and another UK make I dont posses divide the 10MHz standard and the off-air carrier down to 2kHz for locking. It may not be the best but it is generally adequate for off air LF standard distribution. My unit will cover 162kHz or 198kHz. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul swed" <paulswedb@gmail.com> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RFDO - Experience and questions > Gilles > I went back over the starting thread and believe your home brew oscillator > may prevent you from getting all of the accuracy out of TDF. > As I was thinking about a TRF radio and locking the question I arrived at > is how do you turn 162KHz into something useful like 100 KHz 5 MHz or 10 > MHz??. > By getting to standard references there are many very good oven > oscillators > available. > Regards > Paul. > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:35 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking >> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase >> modulation >> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or >> more >> for all bits. >> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. >> Regards >> Paul >> >> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:30 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A bit more reading if you block the phase comparison from -50ms to 150ms >>> of the tick you get a 0 carrier phase no modulation. That also explains >>> why >>> I thought I could here some sort of phase modulation because there is. >>> So as an example if you use a GPS tick its really simple to block the >>> phase changes and only measure the 0 phase carrier. Essentially a 200 ms >>> carrier gap per second. >>> Thats quite a clean format you have to work with. >>> Regards >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 8:19 PM, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I checked out 162KHz at 2000 local and now have what I believe to be >>>> TDF >>>> using the 67 ft vertical antenna. I am reading -82 dbm near Boston in >>>> the >>>> US or 3400 miles. A comfortable signal at least in the winter. As a >>>> comparison wwvb at 60 KHz is -77dbm some 2000 miles but also not at a 2 >>>> MW >>>> power level like TDF. >>>> >>>> Since I had not heard TDF before I listened to Pieters online SDR radio >>>> to see what to listen for. The easiest point to notice is the 59 second >>>> phase. Its funny that also seconds 0-10 should be the same phase but it >>>> did >>>> not seem to be true. Unless what I am hearing is the local oscillator >>>> of >>>> Pieters SDR radio. >>>> >>>> So thanks for sharing some new knowledge with Time-nuts. >>>> Regards >>>> Paul >>>> WB8TSL >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer < >>>> ptdeboer@cs.utwente.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +0000, Iain Young wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF. >>>>> >>>>> > Average phase and frequency deviation is >>>>> > zero over 200msec (see link above for details) >>>>> >>>>> This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry >>>>> the >>>>> time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but >>>>> also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second. >>>>> The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the >>>>> phase >>>>> or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire >>>>> 700 ms block. >>>>> Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined >>>>> framing >>>>> format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in >>>>> practice >>>>> it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be >>>>> cancelled >>>>> for use as a frequency reference. >>>>> >>>>> I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at >>>>> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/ >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >>>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

As you could see in Bul H and on the wikipedia page, there is maintenance every Thursday between 00:00 UTC-04:00 UTC We will see the real maintenance report in BUL-H 591 for March (to be published in April). Le 07/03/2017 à 19:43, paul swed a écrit : > warming up a receiver to see If I can hear it during the day. Could not > yesterday. > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > >> Hey Paul, >> >> My apologies, false alarm, it returned about mid-day French time. >> >> I guess they had some extended maintenance work to do, or something >> that needed daylight >> >> >> Iain >> >> >> On 07/03/17 14:10, paul swed wrote: >> >>> Thanks >>> I have a sense Tdf is a big question >>> But it's pretty strong here >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: >>> >>> On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: >>>> Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking >>>> >>>>> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase >>>>> modulation >>>>> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or >>>>> more >>>>> for all bits. >>>>> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to >>>> find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is >>>> over-running, or just extended maintenance >>>> >>>> >>>> Iain >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 10:04:45AM +0000, Iain Young wrote: > On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: > >Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking > >to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation > >since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more > >for all bits. As I pointed out before, those 800 ms are not constant 0 phase; during 700 ms more phase modulation data is sent. Only the last 100 ms of each second are "clean" (and the entire last second of each minute). > You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to > find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is > over-running, or just extended maintenance The maintenance window has been moved from the night hours to Tuesday morning, presumably to save costs now that there's no AM radio program being transmitted anymore. Also, tests with reduced power (1100 instead of 1500 kW) will start next week; see http://www.anfr.fr/gestion-des-frequences-sites/signal-horaire/les-tests-du-signal-horaire/ (in French). Regards, Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)

Hi, The transmitter is undergoing significant maintenance and testing in view of reducing power (and cost). They were off on the Morning of the 7th and will also do a power test on the 14th at 5:00am French time. The ANRF site is asking for reporting if users get impacted. Maybe you should report from Boston... That would impress and hopefully convince not to weaken the signal... O:)) Best, Gilles. > On Mar 7, 2017, at 17:04, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > > Hey Paul, > > My apologies, false alarm, it returned about mid-day French time. > > I guess they had some extended maintenance work to do, or something > that needed daylight > > > Iain > >> On 07/03/17 14:10, paul swed wrote: >> Thanks >> I have a sense Tdf is a big question >> But it's pretty strong here >> >>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: >>> >>> On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: >>> >>> Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking >>>> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase >>>> modulation >>>> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or >>>> more >>>> for all bits. >>>> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. >>> >>> You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to >>> find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is >>> over-running, or just extended maintenance >>> >>> >>> Iain >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m >>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Well I have to say I only receive the signal at night but again -90 dbm at what ever level they are sending. It would be very easy to work with that signal. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Clemgill <clemgill@club-internet.fr> wrote: > Hi, > The transmitter is undergoing significant maintenance and testing in view > of reducing power (and cost). They were off on the Morning of the 7th and > will also do a power test on the 14th at 5:00am French time. The ANRF site > is asking for reporting if users get impacted. Maybe you should report from > Boston... That would impress and hopefully convince not to weaken the > signal... O:)) > Best, > Gilles. > > > On Mar 7, 2017, at 17:04, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > > > > Hey Paul, > > > > My apologies, false alarm, it returned about mid-day French time. > > > > I guess they had some extended maintenance work to do, or something > > that needed daylight > > > > > > Iain > > > >> On 07/03/17 14:10, paul swed wrote: > >> Thanks > >> I have a sense Tdf is a big question > >> But it's pretty strong here > >> > >>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2017, Iain Young <iain@g7iii.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote: > >>> > >>> Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. > Locking > >>>> to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase > >>>> modulation > >>>> since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or > >>>> more > >>>> for all bits. > >>>> Now to find some nice coils for 162 KHz. > >>> > >>> You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to > >>> find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is > >>> over-running, or just extended maintenance > >>> > >>> > >>> Iain > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > >>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >