Bye-Bye Crystals
On 3/13/2017 11:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:
I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the
raw material.
73, Dick, W1KSZ
Here you go.
actually the process started as Statek started to etch the crystals
http://www.statek.com/corporateoverview.php in 1970 and produces high
quality crystal since than
73
KJ6UHN
On 3/13/2017 11:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:
I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the
raw material.
73, Dick, W1KSZ
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From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@febo.com on behalf of Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.
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.....and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead
frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the
solder was prob LMP.
Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even
with the best machine) which affect the activity. See the video, they are
lapping several at the same time. The unplated blanks are put into a skelton
holder and measured and the most promising one proceded with. First an
evaporated contact to fix the blank to the lead frame. Then electrode
evaporation which brings the frequency down, so the final stage evaporates
electrode while measuring the mounted crystal frequency. Allowances need to
be made for the can.
I doubt most small modern firms would have a X-ray goniometer (?) The one I
saw in the 60s would never pass H&S criteria now. They probably buy cut
blanks in bulk, I think they are relatively cheap this way. My supplier in
the 90s did this.
The whole job is quite labour intensive, making a single crystal might
easily eat $1000 worth of manhours for an amateur, not even allowing for the
occasional "oops".
:-))
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Kinali" attila@kinali.ch
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +0000
Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
The equipment is quite minimal:
- A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
- Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
- a lapping/grinding machine
- an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
- either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
- vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
- something to (cold) weld the case close
All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.
If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:53 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
I think the Arduino, for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator
electronics are inside the Atmel part)
You're right. Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use
ceramic resonators, which make them truly awful for timekeeping
applications.
--
--Jim Harman
Hi
…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging them
Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear
That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.
Bob
On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +0000
Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
The equipment is quite minimal:
- A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
- Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
- a lapping/grinding machine
- an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
- either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
- vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
- something to (cold) weld the case close
All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.
If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
actually the process started as Statek started to etch the crystals
http://www.statek.com/corporateoverview.php in 1970, and produces high
quality crystal since than.
73
Alex
KJ6UHN
On 3/13/2017 11:05 AM, Richard Solomon wrote:
I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the
raw material.
73, Dick, W1KSZ
Sent from Outlookhttp://aka.ms/weboutlook
From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@febo.com on behalf of Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4756/14110 - Release Date: 03/13/17
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Jim Harman j99harman@gmail.com wrote:
Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use ceramic
resonators,
Sorry, the Leonardo does have a crystal. The original Uno had a resonator.
--
--Jim Harman
On 3/13/17 2:59 PM, Alan Melia wrote:
.....and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead
frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the
solder was prob LMP.
Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even
with the best machine) which affect the activity. See the video, they
are lapping several at the same time. The unplated blanks are put into a
skelton holder and measured and the most promising one proceded with.
First an evaporated contact to fix the blank to the lead frame. Then
electrode evaporation which brings the frequency down, so the final
stage evaporates electrode while measuring the mounted crystal
frequency. Allowances need to be made for the can.
I doubt most small modern firms would have a X-ray goniometer (?) The
one I saw in the 60s would never pass H&S criteria now. They probably
buy cut blanks in bulk, I think they are relatively cheap this way. My
supplier in the 90s did this.
The whole job is quite labour intensive, making a single crystal might
easily eat $1000 worth of manhours for an amateur, not even allowing for
the occasional "oops".
:-))
But you would wind up with some nice "artisanally hand crafted" crystals
to plug into a retro radio.
Definitely good for one-upsmanship at the local craft brewery.
I put this in the same sort of bucket as grinding your own telescope
mirrors - maybe something to try once.
Not all crystals are plated, either. I recall pulling crystals out of
holders and using toothpaste to raise their frequency, and a pencil to
lower it. (I will not claim high quality or stability or anything good
about it).
On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging them
Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear
That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.
Just get the Kurt J. Lesker catalog out and start ordering<grin>
Making a finished crystal, especially a high-Q one of a target frequency far
removed from the 8-10 Mhz sweet spot, is definitely one of those projects
that is a lot harder than you would think it is. I was down at ICM a few
years back when we were building some high-Q 70 Mhz VHF crystals for a
filter project and it was amazing the amount of stuff they had there.
73/jeff/ac0c
www.ac0c.com
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Camp
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
Hi
…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are
sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are
lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square ones into round ones without damaging
them
Contouring gear to put the proper shape on one or both sides (or pipes)
Polishing gear to finish the shaping process
Etching baths to get the surface to it’s final condition
High vacuum cleaning to get all the crud off of all the parts before you do
much of anything with themA base plater to put on the initial electrodes
Mounting fixtures to get the crystal into the holder
Cement curing (generally vacuum based) gear
Plate to frequency gear
That’s a short list, there actually is a bit more on a full list. The
cleaning gear can get pretty extensive depending on the end application.
Bob
On Mar 13, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +0000
Adrian Godwin artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
The equipment is quite minimal:
- A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
- Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
- a lapping/grinding machine
- an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes.
- either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them
- vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything
- something to (cold) weld the case close
All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop.
The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals
in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process
to such an degree that you get high quality crystals
at the frequency you want.
If you managed to do that, you can further improve
your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where
the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but
on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same
time as holder.
But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs
but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever
managed to produce a economically viable product.
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.