Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. Power and space considerations mostly. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and > exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. > Power and space considerations mostly. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the electronics. A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to supply his own electronics. You rarely see the latter any more in applications other than oven oscillators. The same thing happened in SAW resonators. About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators. Rick N6RK On 3/13/2017 12:07 AM, Bryan _ wrote: > sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered loose crystals? > > > -=Bryan=- > > > ________________________________ > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist <richard@karlquist.com> > Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals > > I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which > was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 years > ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or > so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose > crystals. > > Rick N6RK > > On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> International’s main business was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and replacing >> broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since the last of the >> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off pretty steadily >> for many years … >> >> Bob >> >>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: >>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit, >>> >>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on. His dad started it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970. It's 47 years later. >>> >>>> >>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a huge boost in spending >>> >>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around. >>> >>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed. I suspect most things being built and designed today use the crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz crystal" is going away. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl521@outlook.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is interesting, classic. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/ > [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg&pid=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/> > > So Long, and Thanks for all the Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/> > hackaday.com > There was a time when anyone involved with radio transmitting -- ham operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or remote control model fans -- had a collection of ... > > > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -=Bryan=- >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > www.febo.com > time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > www.febo.com > time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > www.febo.com > time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > www.febo.com > time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >

I don't think it's as much the manufacturing process as it is procuring the raw material. 73, Dick, W1KSZ Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook> ________________________________ From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> on behalf of Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and > exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. > Power and space considerations mostly. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut. Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm It was very common for hams to regrind crystals for other nearby frequencies at home: http://www.bliley.net/XTAL/docs/misc/XTAL_grinding/grinding.html I have a large assortment of 50's/60's/early 70's FT-243 crystals and they are uniformly crummy from a Q or frequency accuracy perspective. Sometimes opening the holder and cleaning the electrodes and crystal helps a bit - there's some attempt at sealing, like a rubber grommet, in some of the FT-243 holders but mostly there's no attempt at sealing. It's possible the rubber grommets just made things worse through outgassing. Tim N3QE On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. > > What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? > > > On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < > david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > > > > Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and > > exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. > > Power and space considerations mostly. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

I work for a company that builds electronics products, low volume, highly complex units. It used to be that you bought a crystal and then made an oscillator that would use that crystal. Or you had a single chip micro that used a crystal for the time base, in the early days you might have to fight with that oscillator to make it work acceptably. Now for under a dollar one can have an oscillator without the hassle. If the oscillator is a (very) small part of the unit cost, one can spend the engineering effort on more complex parts of the design. You can chose the parameters you want to optimize cost, phase noise, stability etc. On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 10:09:39 -0700 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> wrote: > A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the > electronics. A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has > to supply his own electronics. You rarely see the latter any more in > applications other than oven oscillators. The same thing happened > in SAW resonators. About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators. > > Rick N6RK > > On 3/13/2017 12:07 AM, Bryan _ wrote: > > sorry, what do you mean by "complete oscillator" have outnumbered > > loose crystals? > > > > > > -=Bryan=- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> on behalf of Richard > > (Rick) Karlquist <richard@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 > > PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals > > > > I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which > > was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 > > years ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years > > ago or so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales > > of loose crystals. > > > > Rick N6RK > > > > On 3/11/2017 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> International’s main business was re-channeling non-synthesized > >> radios and replacing broken crystals in various pieces of com > >> gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since the last of the > >> non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been > >> dropping off pretty steadily for many years … > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:39 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: > >>>> From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled > >>>> line of credit, > >>> > >>> Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on. His dad > >>> started it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970. It's 47 years > >>> later. > >>>> > >>>> Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which > >>>> is getting a huge boost in spending > >>> > >>> Plenty of other crystal and oscillator manufacturers around. > >>> > >>> There's also a change in what kinds of crystals are needed. I > >>> suspect most things being built and designed today use the > >>> crystal as a "master oscillator" that is used to drive some sort > >>> of synthesis chain. The need for "I have to have a 12.345,324 Hz > >>> crystal" is going away. > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ <bpl521@outlook.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at > >>>>> the bottom is interesting, classic. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/ > > [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.LElrlkkbByR3K%2f6qfaeHjg&pid=Api]<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/> > > > > So Long, and Thanks for all the > > Crystals<http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/> > > hackaday.com There was a time when anyone involved with radio > > transmitting -- ham operators, CB'ers, scanner enthusiasts, or > > remote control model fans -- had a collection of ... > > > > > > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -=Bryan=- > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo > > Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > > www.febo.com time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the > > discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related > > topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > > > > > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo > > Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > > www.febo.com time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the > > discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related > > topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > > > > > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo > > Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > > www.febo.com time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the > > discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related > > topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > > > > > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > time-nuts Info Page - American Febo > > Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> > > www.febo.com time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the > > discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related > > topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ... > > > > > > > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow > > the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing > > list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow > > the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow > the instructions there. >

		Attila Kinali

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +0000 Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? The equipment is quite minimal: * A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals * Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes) * a lapping/grinding machine * an electroplating machine (usually sputtering) for the electrodes. * either some machine to produce the crystal holder yourself or buy them * vacuum system to evacuate the crystal holder and to bake everything * something to (cold) weld the case close All of this can be put in a (relatively) small workshop. The difficulty is also not producing quartz crystals in holders. The difficulty controlling the whole process to such an degree that you get high quality crystals at the frequency you want. If you managed to do that, you can further improve your system by using a BVA[1,2] like geometry, where the electrodes are not on the resonator itself but on the surrounding crystal, which acts at the same time as holder. But be warned, many attempted to re-create the BVAs but few succeeded... and none but Oscilloquartz ever managed to produce a economically viable product. Attila Kinali [1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1 [2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2 -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

On 3/13/17 8:01 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. > > What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? > Lapping compound and a hunk of glass/polished granite? You can probably buy blanks that are approximately the right size and with the correct cut. If not, you'll need the appropriate saw and jigs and a source of quartz A supply of crystal holders, and the technology to seal them (welding these days, I would imagine) the actual mechanics is probably less of a challenge than establishing the supply chains. For a "one off", it would be pretty easy. > > On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < > david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > >> >> Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and >> exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. >> Power and space considerations mostly. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

On 3/13/17 10:09 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the > electronics. A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to > supply his own electronics. You rarely see the latter any more in > applications other than oven oscillators. The same thing happened in > SAW resonators. About all you can buy now are SAW oscillators. > what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino, for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside the Atmel part) The Arduino Ethernet I have sitting in front of me has a fairly large can labeled T25.000 that looks an awful lot like a crystal, rather than an oscillator. The published Arduino Uno schematic shows a crystal.

On 3/13/17 11:29 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut. > > Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's: > > http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm > > It was very common for hams to regrind crystals for other nearby > frequencies at home: > http://www.bliley.net/XTAL/docs/misc/XTAL_grinding/grinding.html > > "Grinding your own crystals can be lots of fun, and you can have the freedom of a v.f.o. without the danger of a pink ticket." why, it's as simple as spinning the knob on the VFO<grin>