Read about the synthesizer design of that generator here: https://ia600407.us.archive.org/10/items/Hewlett-Packard_Journal_Vol._42_No._2_1991-04_Hewlett-Packard/Hewlett-Packard_Journal_Vol._42_No._2_1991-04_Hewlett-Packard.pdf Dave, looking at the graph you posted it appears to me that the shift is 10 Hz, not 100 Hz. It appears to me that is an audio spectrogram. I have no idea if the frequency shift is in the generator or receiver. -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Thu, Dec 22, 2016, at 10:10 AM, David wrote: > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:39:27 +0000, you wrote: > >> But I find it a bit odd that HP would have a 1 Hz software option >> on this >> instrument, if the instrument jumped up/down 100 Hz. >> >> Now I don't yet have the 1 Hz option programmed in, and it might well >> change the behavior completely, but I'd still like to find a >> way, if one >> exists, of checking this with the equipment I have. >> >> The signal generator is no longer supported, but I could try my >> luck seeing >> if there are any known problems with this unit, or firmware upgrades >> available - currently revision 29, May 1991. >> >> ... >> >> Dave > > I agree with Bill, maybe something is going on at the other end. > > While I do not expect this sort of thing from HP, could they have > deliberately designed the sweep generator to include those 100 Hz > bumps unless the 1 HZ software option was purchased? > > Like Paul, I would not expect the kind of stability you need from a > sweep generator but that 100 Hz jump is just weird. It does kind of > remind me of popcorn noise but without a time scale and a longer > record, it is difficult to tell. > _________________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Hi David: Some time ago I built an automated mixer test system where I first attempted to use HP 8350B sweep generators as the sources for the LO and RF inputs, but this failed to work because at the narrow bandwidth settings on the HP 8566 spectrum analyzer there was way too much phase noise, so I switched to synthesized sweep generators made by HP and Wiltron, but I forget the model numbers. http://www.prc68.com/I/RASS_PP.html#Spur http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/RASS/Mixer.jpg The SA was operated at it's narrowest IF bnadwidth (100 Hz?) and I don't remember seeing any amplitude variations, whereas when the 8350 was used the amplitude jumped wildly. So I expect the problem is in the transverter. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html The lesser of evils is still evil. -------- Original Message -------- > I run a test over the weekend with a fellow radio ham. I transmitted 100 mW > or so at 10368.115 MHz from an HP 83623A 10 MHz to 20 GHz sweep generator > > http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001862%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-83623A/synthesized-sweeper-10-mhz-to-20-ghz-high-power?cc=GB&lc=eng > > into a small horn antenna inside my lab. > > He was able to receive me about 7 km away, although the signal was quite > week - it was 20 dB above the noise in a 2.9 Hz bandwidth. > > What is odd, is that his transceiver + transverter combination indicates > the signal generator is shifting frequency up/down 100 Hz. This is not slow > drift, but a step change - see waterfall picture, where time is on the > vertical axis, and frequency is on the horizontal. Unfortunately I don't > know what the scale is on the vertical axis - I am trying to find out. The > frequency on the x-axis is not the true frequency, but that shown on an 2 m > amateur transceiver, so the true frequency is more than 10 GHz higher. > > The step size on this HP sweeper is 1 kHz, so the 100 Hz up/down shift is > not due to a rotary encoder that might be just on the limit of two > frequencies. Both the internal oscillator and a GPS locked frequency > standard were used during this test. Going from internal to external > reference caused a 450 Hz step in frequency, but did not change this > up/down 100 Hz behavior. So the problem is certainly not the crystal in a > 10 MHz reference oscillator, as two have been tried, one of which was > locked to GPS. > > Does anyone have an idea what may cause this behavior? > > Does anyone have any ideas on the best way to investigate this, given the > signal is at more than 10 GHz? > > What I do *not* have is any other signal generator capable of operation at > 10 GHz. The only other sig gen I have is a 30 MHz Stanford Research DS345 > function generator. > > I don't have a TI counter at the minute, but had an offer of $300 accepted > on eBay for a 5370B a couple of days back, so should have a TI counter > soon. (Yes, I have had an 5370B and SR620 in the past, but for various > reasons no longer have them). The 5370B at $300 was a lot cheaper than an > SR620. > > Other equipment I have include > > * 22 GHz spectrum analyzer > * 30 MHz signal generator > * 20 GHz VNA > > but no other signal generator capable of anywhere near 10 GHz. > > I do have a couple of double balanced mixers which have RF and IF inputs > that will take 10 GHz, and an IF output that will go from DC to 4 GHz. > Introducing a REALLY long delay might allow the steps to be seen, as the > frequency at the LO and RF inputs of the mixers will be different. But > that's not really practical, as I'd need an awfully long bit of coax. > > The 20 GHz vector network analyzer, which could be pressed into service as > a poor (rich) mans microwave signal source, but I suspect the output of > that is quite dirty, as the output is generated from a step recovery diode. > I have not yet tested it on a spectrum analyzer, but the SA has quite a few > spurious signals, so I'm never exactly confident of the SA. But one thing > to possibly is > > * Set sweep generator to 10.368 GHz > * Set sweep generator to 10.378 GHz, so there's a 10 MHz difference. > * Mix the VNA + sweeper down to 10 MHz using a double balanced mixer > * Compare the 10 MHz at the output of a mixer to that of a 10 MHz crystal. > Steps of 100 Hz should then be seen I guess. > > Any better suggestions? > > Someone had kindly given me a key to change the step size of the signal > generator from 1 kHz to 1 Hz. I've not applied that yet, as it is quite a > complex procedure. But the fact the step size of this is 1 kHz, but it is > shifting up/down 100 Hz, does not make sense. Especially given the unit is > capable of 1 Hz resolution, but HP decided to charge extra for 1 Hz steps. > Luckily this is just a software option. > > I did wonder if the signal generator was incapable of output the exact > frequency needed, so it was stepped up/down periodically so it gave the > right number of cycles over a long duration. But again, the fact it can > step 1 Hz with just a software upgrade suggest that's not the case. > > The radio ham that noticed this step change in frequency is well used to > listening on 10 GHz, and hearing beacons. So I think its reasonable to > assume that the problem is not his end, but my end. > > Any thoughts, which do NOT include purchasing a second expensive 20 GHz > signal generator. They are around $10,000 each, so a bit out of my price > range. > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Dave, Look at it with a narrow band SA and see if it's modulated by 100Hz. 73, Mike N2LYM On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 07:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: > On 22 December 2016 at 03:17, paul swed wrote: > >> Dave Congratulations on 10 Ghz SSB. >> > > This was not a QSO at all. It was simply a one way transmission from a > signal generator at my end to a receiver at his end. No QSO was > attempted. > > >> Now to your question. I will fully believe you are seeing normal >> behavior >> of the generators. Even if its dithering 100 Hz thats pretty amazing. >> Sweep >> gens simply are not stable enough for narrow work like you are >> trying. >> Now I am sure comments will prove me totally wrong. >> > > But I find it a bit odd that HP would have a 1 Hz software option on > this > instrument, if the instrument jumped up/down 100 Hz. > > Now I don't yet have the 1 Hz option programmed in, and it might well > change the behavior completely, but I'd still like to find a way, if > one > exists, of checking this with the equipment I have. > > The signal generator is no longer supported, but I could try my luck > seeing > if there are any known problems with this unit, or firmware upgrades > available - currently revision 29, May 1991. > > > >> But I don't think so. (Have been on 10G SSB over the years also. Only >> 60 >> watts plus. Nothing fancy. ;-) ) >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> > > 60 W is clearly some setup. I also know a lot of people run portable > stuff > on 10 GHz, where achieving frequency stability is more of a challenge, > although less so with GPS. But this is a laboratory instrument, from a > reputable manufacturer. I personally would not expected this behavior. > I > actually purchased this very cheaply (£650 GBP, which would have been > about > $900 at the time), but they are not cheap to buy now. > > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

Hi In a country with 50 Hz power lines, figuring out anything at 50, 100 or 150 Hz is going to be a bit exciting. Bob > On Dec 22, 2016, at 4:04 PM, n2lym <n2lym@optonline.net> wrote: > > Dave, > > Look at it with a narrow band SA and see if it's modulated by 100Hz. > > 73, > > Mike N2LYM > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 07:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: > >> On 22 December 2016 at 03:17, paul swed > wrote: >> >>> Dave Congratulations on 10 Ghz SSB. >>> >> >> This was not a QSO at all. It was simply a one way transmission from a >> signal generator at my end to a receiver at his end. No QSO was attempted. >> >> >>> Now to your question. I will fully believe you are seeing normal behavior >>> of the generators. Even if its dithering 100 Hz thats pretty amazing. Sweep >>> gens simply are not stable enough for narrow work like you are trying. >>> Now I am sure comments will prove me totally wrong. >>> >> >> But I find it a bit odd that HP would have a 1 Hz software option on this >> instrument, if the instrument jumped up/down 100 Hz. >> >> Now I don't yet have the 1 Hz option programmed in, and it might well >> change the behavior completely, but I'd still like to find a way, if one >> exists, of checking this with the equipment I have. >> >> The signal generator is no longer supported, but I could try my luck seeing >> if there are any known problems with this unit, or firmware upgrades >> available - currently revision 29, May 1991. >> >> >> >>> But I don't think so. (Have been on 10G SSB over the years also. Only 60 >>> watts plus. Nothing fancy. ;-) ) >>> Regards >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> >> >> 60 W is clearly some setup. I also know a lot of people run portable stuff >> on 10 GHz, where achieving frequency stability is more of a challenge, >> although less so with GPS. But this is a laboratory instrument, from a >> reputable manufacturer. I personally would not expected this behavior. I >> actually purchased this very cheaply (£650 GBP, which would have been about >> $900 at the time), but they are not cheap to buy now. >> >> >> Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

On 22 December 2016 at 02:54, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: > Can you use the VNA as a receiver? And determine whether the 100Hz shift > is also seen on the VNA > The VNA has what's called "tuned receiver" mode, but it is very poorly documented - or at least I've never seen it well documented. I tried a few different things. 1) Put the sweep generator into the VNA using tuned-receiver mode. Both were locked to GPS. The signal generator appears in the middle of the screen, and whilst one can't say a lot about the quality, there's no doubt that the position of the peak never moves `100 Hz. 2) Put the signal generator into the spectrum analyzer. This does show some odd results sometimes, but I'm always a bit concerned that these might internally generated signals, as whatever source on connects to the SA, it brings up a lot of spurious signals. There's currently no preselector on this, although I do have one in a box. But there is some evidence that maybe the oscillator is moving. But I'm not 100% convinced. 3) Connected the source output of the VNA to the spectrum analyzer. The SA shows the source is far from clean - much poorer than the signal generator. So I think I can conclude that the source in the VNA is quite poor, which is what I expected to be honest. There is not even a specification for phase noise on this. So any thoughts of mixing the VNA source with the signal generator will be a complete waste of time. I think I can conclude that attempting to use the VNA in any source of measurement or as a signal source will just not work. Dave

Hi Bob, I don't have issues at 60, 120, or 180Hz in a 60Hz country. Even with a 500KV line a few thousand feet away. I can hear the corona on the ham bands at times. Mike On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 05:15 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > > In a country with 50 Hz power lines, figuring out anything at 50, 100 > or 150 Hz > is going to be a bit exciting. > > Bob > >> On Dec 22, 2016, at 4:04 PM, n2lym wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> Look at it with a narrow band SA and see if it's modulated by 100Hz. >> >> 73, >> >> Mike N2LYM >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 07:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave >> Ltd) wrote: >> >>> On 22 December 2016 at 03:17, paul swed >> wrote: >>> >>>> Dave Congratulations on 10 Ghz SSB. >>>> >>> >>> This was not a QSO at all. It was simply a one way transmission from >>> a >>> signal generator at my end to a receiver at his end. No QSO was >>> attempted. >>> >>> >>>> Now to your question. I will fully believe you are seeing normal >>>> behavior >>>> of the generators. Even if its dithering 100 Hz thats pretty >>>> amazing. Sweep >>>> gens simply are not stable enough for narrow work like you are >>>> trying. >>>> Now I am sure comments will prove me totally wrong. >>>> >>> >>> But I find it a bit odd that HP would have a 1 Hz software option on >>> this >>> instrument, if the instrument jumped up/down 100 Hz. >>> >>> Now I don't yet have the 1 Hz option programmed in, and it might >>> well >>> change the behavior completely, but I'd still like to find a way, if >>> one >>> exists, of checking this with the equipment I have. >>> >>> The signal generator is no longer supported, but I could try my luck >>> seeing >>> if there are any known problems with this unit, or firmware upgrades >>> available - currently revision 29, May 1991. >>> >>> >>> >>>> But I don't think so. (Have been on 10G SSB over the years also. >>>> Only 60 >>>> watts plus. Nothing fancy. ;-) ) >>>> Regards >>>> Paul >>>> WB8TSL >>>> >>> >>> 60 W is clearly some setup. I also know a lot of people run portable >>> stuff >>> on 10 GHz, where achieving frequency stability is more of a >>> challenge, >>> although less so with GPS. But this is a laboratory instrument, from >>> a >>> reputable manufacturer. I personally would not expected this >>> behavior. I >>> actually purchased this very cheaply (£650 GBP, which would have >>> been about >>> $900 at the time), but they are not cheap to buy now. >>> >>> >>> Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

I think case #1 tells you that the frequency step is not occurring on the sweeper as both The source and receiver are locked to GPS and no trace of the step effect is seen I would be much more inclined to think that the transverter is encountering some type of power supply related artifact. As to the tuned receiver mode yes it's VERY poorly documented but I use it in conjunction with an Anechoic chamber to characterize antennas > On Dec 22, 2016, at 5:45 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 22 December 2016 at 02:54, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Can you use the VNA as a receiver? And determine whether the 100Hz shift >> is also seen on the VNA > > The VNA has what's called "tuned receiver" mode, but it is very poorly > documented - or at least I've never seen it well documented. > > > I tried a few different things. > > 1) Put the sweep generator into the VNA using tuned-receiver mode. Both > were locked to GPS. The signal generator appears in the middle of the > screen, and whilst one can't say a lot about the quality, there's no doubt > that the position of the peak never moves `100 Hz. > > 2) Put the signal generator into the spectrum analyzer. This does show some > odd results sometimes, but I'm always a bit concerned that these might > internally generated signals, as whatever source on connects to the SA, it > brings up a lot of spurious signals. There's currently no preselector on > this, although I do have one in a box. > > But there is some evidence that maybe the oscillator is moving. But I'm not > 100% convinced. > > 3) Connected the source output of the VNA to the spectrum analyzer. The SA > shows the source is far from clean - much poorer than the signal > generator. So I think I can conclude that the source in the VNA is quite > poor, which is what I expected to be honest. There is not even a > specification for phase noise on this. > > So any thoughts of mixing the VNA source with the signal generator will be > a complete waste of time. > > I think I can conclude that attempting to use the VNA in any source of > measurement or as a signal source will just not work. > > > Dave > <spectrum-analyzer-does-show-something-odd.jpg> > <spikes.jpg> > <vna-shows-no-obvious-issues.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

On 22 December 2016 at 20:54, Bill Byrom <time@radio.sent.com> wrote: > Read about the synthesizer design of that generator here: > > https://ia600407.us.archive.org/10/items/Hewlett-Packard_ > Journal_Vol._42_No._2_1991-04_Hewlett-Packard/Hewlett- > Packard_Journal_Vol._42_No._2_1991-04_Hewlett-Packard.pdf > Cheers, I will do that. > > Dave, looking at the graph you posted it appears to me that the shift is > 10 Hz, not 100 Hz. It appears to me that is an audio spectrogram. I have > no idea if the frequency shift is in the generator or receiver. > Well done!. I thought I was told it was 100 Hz, but looking at the diagram, it is closer to about 10~15 Hz. The setup his end is a software defined radio, so the measurement of frequency is being done at audio. Unfortunately, I've been unable to get a response by phone, so I can't seem to get much in the way of technical details at this minute. I have an HP 5342A -- 10Hz to 18GHz Microwave Frequency Counter with 1 Hz resolution, but I belive this is moving (it is is), is quicker than the time it would take to measure to 10 GHz to 1 Hz. I can lock that to GPS easy enough, so the signal generator would be fed from the same reference as the frequency counter, but I don't think that would help. It would appear that measuring such small changes at microwave frequencies is not easy. Mixing with very good quality signal generator or known performance would probably be ok, but even old 20 GHz units are expensive. To get a good quality new signal generator would be a small fortune. I don't think even sending this to Keysight for calibration would achieve anything useful. I have not looked at the specification in detail, but phase noise is specification is -76 dBc at 10 kHz offset at 20 GHz. The calibration of this is high too ($1600 in the USA). > > Bill Byrom N5BB > Dave

Hi On a sweep generator with a magnet tuned YIG, supply ripple is a very common issue …. Bob > On Dec 22, 2016, at 9:00 PM, n2lym <n2lym@optonline.net> wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > I don't have issues at 60, 120, or 180Hz in a 60Hz country. Even with a 500KV line a few thousand feet away. I can hear the corona on the ham bands at times. > > > Mike > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 05:15 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >> >> In a country with 50 Hz power lines, figuring out anything at 50, 100 or 150 Hz >> is going to be a bit exciting. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Dec 22, 2016, at 4:04 PM, n2lym wrote: >>> >>> Dave, >>> >>> Look at it with a narrow band SA and see if it's modulated by 100Hz. >>> >>> 73, >>> >>> Mike N2LYM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 07:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: >>> >>>> On 22 December 2016 at 03:17, paul swed >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave Congratulations on 10 Ghz SSB. >>>>> >>>> >>>> This was not a QSO at all. It was simply a one way transmission from a >>>> signal generator at my end to a receiver at his end. No QSO was attempted. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Now to your question. I will fully believe you are seeing normal behavior >>>>> of the generators. Even if its dithering 100 Hz thats pretty amazing. Sweep >>>>> gens simply are not stable enough for narrow work like you are trying. >>>>> Now I am sure comments will prove me totally wrong. >>>>> >>>> >>>> But I find it a bit odd that HP would have a 1 Hz software option on this >>>> instrument, if the instrument jumped up/down 100 Hz. >>>> >>>> Now I don't yet have the 1 Hz option programmed in, and it might well >>>> change the behavior completely, but I'd still like to find a way, if one >>>> exists, of checking this with the equipment I have. >>>> >>>> The signal generator is no longer supported, but I could try my luck seeing >>>> if there are any known problems with this unit, or firmware upgrades >>>> available - currently revision 29, May 1991. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> But I don't think so. (Have been on 10G SSB over the years also. Only 60 >>>>> watts plus. Nothing fancy. ;-) ) >>>>> Regards >>>>> Paul >>>>> WB8TSL >>>>> >>>> >>>> 60 W is clearly some setup. I also know a lot of people run portable stuff >>>> on 10 GHz, where achieving frequency stability is more of a challenge, >>>> although less so with GPS. But this is a laboratory instrument, from a >>>> reputable manufacturer. I personally would not expected this behavior. I >>>> actually purchased this very cheaply (£650 GBP, which would have been about >>>> $900 at the time), but they are not cheap to buy now. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.