Attila Kinali

Hi > On Jun 24, 2016, at 11:56 PM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:59:58 -0500 > "Graham / KE9H" <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Lots of problems to be solved... > > Most of these problems are easy: > >> How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels > > You don't. No loose parts with any kind of pick&place machine. > As for cut tape, these can be taped on an empty reel to make > them compatible. Everything has to be in a tray, reel or similar. > >> and get the right >> part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction? > > Orientation is defined by the reel/tray the parts come in. > This is also documented in the datasheet, usually. If the part is oriented top-bottom and you have it on the board both top-bottom and left-right .. you need to be able to re-orient it after you have picked the part. If it is a diode or semiconductor , you have four obvious orientations for the part. Doing four reels for every diode or semi just isn’t the way it is done. You buy one reel and let the machine deal with it. If you add in things that are oriented at a 30, 45, or 60 degree angle, you simply can not have a reel for all the orientations. The Z axis needs to rotate. > >> How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC >> footprints, can you handle at once? > > As many as there is space around the machine :-) If it is a moving table design (as many if not most are) that really does not count. You can’t get the head there. Bob > >> How do you know it is the correct part? > > You put it manually in the right feeder and double check that it > fits the programming. > >> How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is? > > This comes with the orientation of the part in the reel/tray. > >> How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck? > > Your trays are guaranteed to be non-empty by manually loading them. > >> How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected it? > > The manufacturer guarantees that the reels/trays are loaded correctly. > >> How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? (to a >> few thousandths.) > > This is provided by the pick&place file. Usually its 3-5 digits after the > decimal point, when using mm. But as I wrote before, you don't have to > place part hyper exact. Being within 0.1-0.3 of the pitch of the part > is usually enough. Surface tension does the rest. > >> How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended it >> to be? > > You dont :-) > > The way how this is checked is either a pre-solder and/or post-solder visual > inspection. This is either done manualy or using a camera system where > computer compares the PCB to the picture of a known-good PCB. > As this is ment for a small volume and hobbyist system, doing the visual > inspection manualy is good enough and more than fast enough. > > Attila Kinali > -- > Malek's Law: > Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

                    Attila Kinali

And try to tell transistor A from transistor B from diode C when they are all upside down. A moving head design can be made to pick up parts off of reels on all four sides. But it takes more table space. Which is money. As someone else said, you need Z rotation, which isn't as easy as it sounds when using pneumatics to pick up the part. Moving table design sounds like a recipe for shaking the parts off the solder pads. I've not had good luck with solder paste staying tacky for long. In which case you are dispensing paste then sticking part. Not a deal breaker but slow. > On Jun 25, 2016, at 04:12, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > > Many parts can't be recognised visually. Capacitors are the obvious example. > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 6:11 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.chris@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> The ideal hobby use pick and place machine would be very different >> from a commercial machine. Lets say I want one board made. What I >> want to minimize is my time. With a conventional machine by FAR most >> of my time is spent setting the machine up. In fact setup is so slow >> that for smaller PCBs I could do it with tweezers in a fifth of the >> time needed to set up the machine. >> >> So a hobby machine must be designed such that you could get it going >> in nearly zero time. In the ideal case you drop the parts all mixed >> up, (but right side up) in a small tray. They are mixed and in random >> orientation. then you give the machine your PCB design file (not a >> special pick and place file) and then a vision system IDs the parts. >> Today vision is dirt cheap. >> >> But the 3D printer needs one more degree of freedom. It must be able >> to rotate the part (or the PCB) as it is unlikely the part on the tape >> or tray only needs translation to the PCB, likely ration is required >> in almost all cases. >> >> I think a hobby machine would only be successful if it could reduce >> the setup time to nearly zero and for that it would need a really good >> vision system that could hunt down randomly placed parts. It would >> have to work pretty much like you or I would do the job manually. But >> we have software like openCV and good "board cams" with M7 >> interchangeable lenses for $35. A vision system actually saves a ton >> of money because the machine need not be so precise as vision closes a >> feedback loop. >> >> Also how many hobbyists are going to have reels of parts? I might buy >> some parts by the dozen but most no more than about 4 or 6 at a time. >> I don't want a large machine. It should have a working surface, a >> white melamine table about 12 inches square and I place the PCB to be >> stuffed and all the parts on the same foot square table at any random >> location then press the "go" button. The camera scans the table. >> This kind of machine would be horrible for production work but a one >> foot cube machine that required zero setup is what most of us want. >> >> Going a little farther. I'd like this SAME machine to actually make >> the PCB too. A 3D printer could route the copper and drill holes and >> print the solder resist plastic too. >> >>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: >>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:59:58 -0500 >>> "Graham / KE9H" <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Lots of problems to be solved... >>> >>> Most of these problems are easy: >>> >>>> How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels >>> >>> You don't. No loose parts with any kind of pick&place machine. >>> As for cut tape, these can be taped on an empty reel to make >>> them compatible. Everything has to be in a tray, reel or similar. >>> >>>> and get the right >>>> part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction? >>> >>> Orientation is defined by the reel/tray the parts come in. >>> This is also documented in the datasheet, usually. >>> >>>> How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC >>>> footprints, can you handle at once? >>> >>> As many as there is space around the machine :-) >>> >>>> How do you know it is the correct part? >>> >>> You put it manually in the right feeder and double check that it >>> fits the programming. >>> >>>> How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is? >>> >>> This comes with the orientation of the part in the reel/tray. >>> >>>> How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck? >>> >>> Your trays are guaranteed to be non-empty by manually loading them. >>> >>>> How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected >> it? >>> >>> The manufacturer guarantees that the reels/trays are loaded correctly. >>> >>>> How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? >> (to a >>>> few thousandths.) >>> >>> This is provided by the pick&place file. Usually its 3-5 digits after the >>> decimal point, when using mm. But as I wrote before, you don't have to >>> place part hyper exact. Being within 0.1-0.3 of the pitch of the part >>> is usually enough. Surface tension does the rest. >>> >>>> How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended >> it >>>> to be? >>> >>> You dont :-) >>> >>> The way how this is checked is either a pre-solder and/or post-solder >> visual >>> inspection. This is either done manualy or using a camera system where >>> computer compares the PCB to the picture of a known-good PCB. >>> As this is ment for a small volume and hobbyist system, doing the visual >>> inspection manualy is good enough and more than fast enough. >>> >>> Attila Kinali >>> -- >>> Malek's Law: >>> Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Albertson >> Redondo Beach, California >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

                   Attila Kinali

Hi Even on a “real design” desktop pick and place, vibration is an issue for parts moving around. The same is true of parts “squirming” on a pick head as it does it’s thing. Part’s aren’t as flat as you might think they are and you can only get just so much vacuum. Lots of grubby design details. ==== One thing that has not been covered so far is (at least to me) the best way to do manual pick and place. A lot of people try to do it with tweezers. I find that to be a massive pain. A vacuum pickup with a foot switch goes *much* faster for me. It also is a much better way to keep your hands out of the solder paste. You can get some nice long pickups. A setup is not very expensive, even with an illuminated magnifier to help see what you are doing. As an added bonus, some systems will let you reverse the pump and use it to dispense solder paste. The net result is that you have an effective way to both put down solder and place the parts. I prefer stencils for the solder side of things, but that is very much a mater of debate. Bob > On Jun 25, 2016, at 9:16 AM, bownes <bownes@gmail.com> wrote: > > And try to tell transistor A from transistor B from diode C when they are all upside down. > > A moving head design can be made to pick up parts off of reels on all four sides. But it takes more table space. Which is money. > > As someone else said, you need Z rotation, which isn't as easy as it sounds when using pneumatics to pick up the part. > > Moving table design sounds like a recipe for shaking the parts off the solder pads. I've not had good luck with solder paste staying tacky for long. In which case you are dispensing paste then sticking part. Not a deal breaker but slow. > >> On Jun 25, 2016, at 04:12, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Many parts can't be recognised visually. Capacitors are the obvious example. >> >> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 6:11 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.chris@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> The ideal hobby use pick and place machine would be very different >>> from a commercial machine. Lets say I want one board made. What I >>> want to minimize is my time. With a conventional machine by FAR most >>> of my time is spent setting the machine up. In fact setup is so slow >>> that for smaller PCBs I could do it with tweezers in a fifth of the >>> time needed to set up the machine. >>> >>> So a hobby machine must be designed such that you could get it going >>> in nearly zero time. In the ideal case you drop the parts all mixed >>> up, (but right side up) in a small tray. They are mixed and in random >>> orientation. then you give the machine your PCB design file (not a >>> special pick and place file) and then a vision system IDs the parts. >>> Today vision is dirt cheap. >>> >>> But the 3D printer needs one more degree of freedom. It must be able >>> to rotate the part (or the PCB) as it is unlikely the part on the tape >>> or tray only needs translation to the PCB, likely ration is required >>> in almost all cases. >>> >>> I think a hobby machine would only be successful if it could reduce >>> the setup time to nearly zero and for that it would need a really good >>> vision system that could hunt down randomly placed parts. It would >>> have to work pretty much like you or I would do the job manually. But >>> we have software like openCV and good "board cams" with M7 >>> interchangeable lenses for $35. A vision system actually saves a ton >>> of money because the machine need not be so precise as vision closes a >>> feedback loop. >>> >>> Also how many hobbyists are going to have reels of parts? I might buy >>> some parts by the dozen but most no more than about 4 or 6 at a time. >>> I don't want a large machine. It should have a working surface, a >>> white melamine table about 12 inches square and I place the PCB to be >>> stuffed and all the parts on the same foot square table at any random >>> location then press the "go" button. The camera scans the table. >>> This kind of machine would be horrible for production work but a one >>> foot cube machine that required zero setup is what most of us want. >>> >>> Going a little farther. I'd like this SAME machine to actually make >>> the PCB too. A 3D printer could route the copper and drill holes and >>> print the solder resist plastic too. >>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: >>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:59:58 -0500 >>>> "Graham / KE9H" <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lots of problems to be solved... >>>> >>>> Most of these problems are easy: >>>> >>>>> How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels >>>> >>>> You don't. No loose parts with any kind of pick&place machine. >>>> As for cut tape, these can be taped on an empty reel to make >>>> them compatible. Everything has to be in a tray, reel or similar. >>>> >>>>> and get the right >>>>> part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction? >>>> >>>> Orientation is defined by the reel/tray the parts come in. >>>> This is also documented in the datasheet, usually. >>>> >>>>> How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC >>>>> footprints, can you handle at once? >>>> >>>> As many as there is space around the machine :-) >>>> >>>>> How do you know it is the correct part? >>>> >>>> You put it manually in the right feeder and double check that it >>>> fits the programming. >>>> >>>>> How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is? >>>> >>>> This comes with the orientation of the part in the reel/tray. >>>> >>>>> How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck? >>>> >>>> Your trays are guaranteed to be non-empty by manually loading them. >>>> >>>>> How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected >>> it? >>>> >>>> The manufacturer guarantees that the reels/trays are loaded correctly. >>>> >>>>> How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? >>> (to a >>>>> few thousandths.) >>>> >>>> This is provided by the pick&place file. Usually its 3-5 digits after the >>>> decimal point, when using mm. But as I wrote before, you don't have to >>>> place part hyper exact. Being within 0.1-0.3 of the pitch of the part >>>> is usually enough. Surface tension does the rest. >>>> >>>>> How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended >>> it >>>>> to be? >>>> >>>> You dont :-) >>>> >>>> The way how this is checked is either a pre-solder and/or post-solder >>> visual >>>> inspection. This is either done manualy or using a camera system where >>>> computer compares the PCB to the picture of a known-good PCB. >>>> As this is ment for a small volume and hobbyist system, doing the visual >>>> inspection manualy is good enough and more than fast enough. >>>> >>>> Attila Kinali >>>> -- >>>> Malek's Law: >>>> Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Albertson >>> Redondo Beach, California >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Hi Might be a little more fun if it showed the proper way to use the 150B (or any similar device). Bob > On Jun 25, 2016, at 5:48 AM, Bryan _ <bpl521@outlook.com> wrote: > > Quartz Crystal motional movement... > https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q > -=Bryan=- > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

                      Attila Kinali

There is a "hobbY" pick and placer called LitePlacer that meets a lot of your criteria. http://www.liteplacer.com It works on cut strips, not reals, it will handle random placed parts on the table top, but so far I don't think it automatically figures out what they are. But you can put a bunch of one part in one area, another bunch of parts in a different area etc. But for most parts you just leave them in the cut strips taped to the table. The cameras read the holes in the tape and use that to figure out where the parts are. The first one it grabs from a tape it takes it over to an upwards facing camera to make sure it gets rotation correct and knows exactly where the pins are. It even has the white melamine table. I haven't bought one yet, but I'm strongly considering it. John S. On 6/24/2016 10:11 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: > The ideal hobby use pick and place machine would be very different > from a commercial machine. Lets say I want one board made. What I > want to minimize is my time. With a conventional machine by FAR most > of my time is spent setting the machine up. In fact setup is so slow > that for smaller PCBs I could do it with tweezers in a fifth of the > time needed to set up the machine. > > So a hobby machine must be designed such that you could get it going > in nearly zero time. In the ideal case you drop the parts all mixed > up, (but right side up) in a small tray. They are mixed and in random > orientation. then you give the machine your PCB design file (not a > special pick and place file) and then a vision system IDs the parts. > Today vision is dirt cheap. > > But the 3D printer needs one more degree of freedom. It must be able > to rotate the part (or the PCB) as it is unlikely the part on the tape > or tray only needs translation to the PCB, likely ration is required > in almost all cases. > > I think a hobby machine would only be successful if it could reduce > the setup time to nearly zero and for that it would need a really good > vision system that could hunt down randomly placed parts. It would > have to work pretty much like you or I would do the job manually. But > we have software like openCV and good "board cams" with M7 > interchangeable lenses for $35. A vision system actually saves a ton > of money because the machine need not be so precise as vision closes a > feedback loop. > > Also how many hobbyists are going to have reels of parts? I might buy > some parts by the dozen but most no more than about 4 or 6 at a time. > I don't want a large machine. It should have a working surface, a > white melamine table about 12 inches square and I place the PCB to be > stuffed and all the parts on the same foot square table at any random > location then press the "go" button. The camera scans the table. > This kind of machine would be horrible for production work but a one > foot cube machine that required zero setup is what most of us want. > > Going a little farther. I'd like this SAME machine to actually make > the PCB too. A 3D printer could route the copper and drill holes and > print the solder resist plastic too. > > On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: >> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:59:58 -0500 >> "Graham / KE9H" <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Lots of problems to be solved... >> >> Most of these problems are easy: >> >>> How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels >> >> You don't. No loose parts with any kind of pick&place machine. >> As for cut tape, these can be taped on an empty reel to make >> them compatible. Everything has to be in a tray, reel or similar. >> >>> and get the right >>> part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction? >> >> Orientation is defined by the reel/tray the parts come in. >> This is also documented in the datasheet, usually. >> >>> How many different kinds of parts, sizes, shapes, pin counts, IC >>> footprints, can you handle at once? >> >> As many as there is space around the machine :-) >> >>> How do you know it is the correct part? >> >> You put it manually in the right feeder and double check that it >> fits the programming. >> >>> How do you know where the "+" end, or "pin 1" is? >> >> This comes with the orientation of the part in the reel/tray. >> >>> How do you know that there actually is a part in the chuck? >> >> Your trays are guaranteed to be non-empty by manually loading them. >> >>> How do you know the part in the chuck is oriented the way you expected it? >> >> The manufacturer guarantees that the reels/trays are loaded correctly. >> >>> How do you know where the footprint on the circuit board is located? (to a >>> few thousandths.) >> >> This is provided by the pick&place file. Usually its 3-5 digits after the >> decimal point, when using mm. But as I wrote before, you don't have to >> place part hyper exact. Being within 0.1-0.3 of the pitch of the part >> is usually enough. Surface tension does the rest. >> >>> How do you know the part left the chuck and ended up where you intended it >>> to be? >> >> You dont :-) >> >> The way how this is checked is either a pre-solder and/or post-solder visual >> inspection. This is either done manualy or using a camera system where >> computer compares the PCB to the picture of a known-good PCB. >> As this is ment for a small volume and hobbyist system, doing the visual >> inspection manualy is good enough and more than fast enough. >> >> Attila Kinali >> -- >> Malek's Law: >> Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > >

excellent vid, Bryan!!!!! On 2016-06-25 03:48, Bryan _ wrote: > Quartz Crystal motional movement... > https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q > -=Bryan=- > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Dr. Don Latham PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834 VOX: 406-626-4304

		Attila Kinali

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 02:48:04 -0700 Bryan _ <bpl521@outlook.com> wrote: > Quartz Crystal motional movement... > https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q Some additional info: The Q of a crystal decreases with frequency. For a given crystal slap and production process, Q*f is almost constant, with a peak around 5 to 10MHz. The highest Q I remember seeing were BVA's that reached 2e6 to 3e6 @ 5MHz Attila Kinali -- Malek's Law: Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.

		Attila Kinali

Hi Every paper I have ever read on the intrinsic Q of quartz makes the claim that Q * F is a constant ( Q goes up as frequency goes down). Unless blank diameter gets in the way, this has been true for any crystals I have ever used. Q does change as overtone changes, but that is not related to the Q of the material. A given blank design may (or may not) be limited by the Q of the quartz at any specific frequency. That is a function of a lot of things. The material’s properties set a maximum Q you can achieve no matter how good your blank design is and how big the blank. Done properly, the best 5 MHz resonator you can do *will* have 2X the Q of the best 10 MHz resonator. Bob > On Jun 25, 2016, at 7:52 PM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 02:48:04 -0700 > Bryan _ <bpl521@outlook.com> wrote: > >> Quartz Crystal motional movement... >> https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q > > Some additional info: > > The Q of a crystal decreases with frequency. For a given crystal slap > and production process, Q*f is almost constant, with a peak around 5 to 10MHz. > > The highest Q I remember seeing were BVA's that reached 2e6 to 3e6 @ 5MHz > > Attila Kinali > > -- > Malek's Law: > Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

> Hi > > Might be a little more fun if it showed the proper way to use the 150B (or any similar device). > > Bob Hi Bob, Can you tell those of us with those cool Saunders 150B crystal impedance meters how to do it right? /tvb

> The highest Q I remember seeing were BVA's that reached 2e6 to 3e6 @ 5MHz > > Attila Kinali Hi Attila, Don't forget about University of Western Australia's multi-decade gift to the world -- whispering gallery Cryogenic Sapphire Oscillator (CSO) -- which have Q near 1e9. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1504.02711.pdf http://www.nict.go.jp/publication/shuppan/kihou-journal/journal-vol57no3_4/journal-vol57no3-4_0204.pdf http://www.armms.org/media/uploads/ARMMS_Oxborrow.pdf /tvb