FYI, I contacted MTI a few years ago for some replacement 10MHz OCXO, and their minimum buy was 5 pcs. --Andrew -------------------------------- Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D. On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:46 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > Ok, well, the boys at Rakon / CEPE will be happy to sell you a ~ $30,000 > OCXO > with a lead time of about 2 years. I suspect you will have to pay at time > of order > unless you are a well known business …. Unlike a lot of this and that you > see > tossed around for specs, I’m quite sure they *do* meet their published > numbers. > > The only thing I’m not 100% sure of is if the minimum order quantity is > 1,3,5 or > 10. If cost is no object, that should not really matter. > > Bob > > > On Jan 10, 2022, at 3:06 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> > wrote: > > > > -------- > > Bob kb8tq writes: > > > >> My only concern here is that before one goes of and spends 5,10, or > >> 20 thousand dollars on an OCXO, [...] > > > > Bob, you are kind of missing the point here... > > > > The entire point of Audio-Homoepathy is to spend excessive amounts > > of money, so that you can brag about how rich you are, and how > > super-human your refined sense of hearing is, all without wasting > > any time or effort on it. > > > > How else can there be a market for $3000 CAT-6 ethernet cables ? > > > > It is Audio-Homoepathy, because the crucial feature is "orders of > magnitude". > > > > They do not buy a slightly expensive ethernet cable, they buy one > > which cost several orders of magnitude more than what it is worth, > > so that nobody can doubt that money is no issue - and thereby > > make the money the only real point. > > > > I know several people who are quite comfortable parting these > > newly-rich from their money, and I cannot really fault them... > > > > One of those companies have a business model where they hand-build > > quite competent amplifiers using outrageous raw materials and hawk > > them at insane prices using industry-strength flim-flam. > > > > When I say "indystry-strength flim-flam" I mean it. > > > > At one time they had a role of teflon foil stored next to a resarch > > nuclear reactor for some weeks, so that the "neutrons could equalize > > the the tension in the micro-grid structure" before it got rolled > > into capacitors with a gold foil with similar super-natural properties. > > > > Often the invariably "very serious buyer" will persuade them, in > > return for a stiff compensation, to never build any more, and refuse > > to ever talk abut it, so he can (also) brag about having the only > > one ever made, and make up some flim-flam about why that is so > > ("... but that reactor is closed now, and the guy who knew how to > > reorient the rolls is dead.") > > > > Then they rinse & repeat, this time with capacitors wound by virgins > > from some tropical island or whatever. > > > > The fact that the socalled "NFT" market has negatively impacted the > > "high end audio" market recently tells you everything you need to > > know about both of them. > > > > So the question we are really being asked here, is what which > > OCXO can be flim-flam'ed the most, when it becomes another dose > > of audio-homoepathy. > > > > Poul-Henning > > > > -- > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by > incompetence. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send > an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.

Am 10.01.2022 um 20:05 schrieb Attila Kinali: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:19:09 +0100 > Stefan Heinzmann <stefan_heinzmann@gmx.de> wrote: > >> Yet you mention phase noise specs very close to the carrier (so close >> that any artifacts are bound to mix into the subsonic range!), > > A word of caution here: Human hearing is very very sensitive to some > things. One of those is two-tone discrimination. We can tell two > simultaneous tones appart quite easily, even if they are very close, > given they are at about the same loudness. 10Hz difference is nothing > and everyone can do that, even without training. Only once you get to > around 1Hz difference, will you need to get a musician or someone with > an equally trained ear. And it isn't the limit yet of what we found that > people, with training, can hear. When two tones with approximately the same level and a frequency difference of 1 Hz mix, you get a flanging effect due to the shifting phase relationship, and that tends to be very obvious. No need for a trained ear there. But that's not what we're about here. Human hearing definitely has its particular sensitivities, but that only goes to show that you can't make sweeping generalizations that can be expressed in terms of simple numbers like the phase noise 1 Hz from the carrier. It is dependent on the scenario, and one of the questions that needed asking, and was asked, is: What does the oscillator actually drive, i.e. feed into? There simply isn't any way to come up with meaningful figures if you don't have a very clear answer to that question. And the original poster didn't offer any. Furthermore, the ear's properties, and those of the entire auditory system, have been studied in considerable detail. It isn't a big mystery anymore what we are capable of hearing, and what we almost certainly aren't. This includes the effect of phase jitter/noise. > The reason why I am sceptical of the phase noise specs is because > artifacts would end up at much lower amplitudes. Which means the > signal that causes the artifact would be so much louder than the > artifact, that it would mask the artifact. Yes, masking is one reason why you wouldn't hear artifacts resulting from phase noise close to the carrier. But the specs offered by the original poster are so "aggressive" that you wouldn't even need to take masking into account for dismissing audible effects as implausible. Cheers Stefan

Hi Norman, Contact sales at nelfc.com Regards, Jorge. On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:03 AM Norman Reitz via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi, everyone, > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) > and 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality > requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be > better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 > dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. > Unfortunately, the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have > found are not available for private customers - or you only sell with proof > of use or a trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space > or defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact > person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am > already aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. > best regards > Norman > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send > an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.

On 10.01.22 16:23, Lux, Jim wrote: > And I suppose this is why it's worth talking to the mfr than looking > through the catalogs. There might well be some key requirement that if > relaxed slightly would work out quite well in terms of availability. > > We run into this all the time in the space business - someone does a > structured requirements flowdown, allocating design margin to subunits, > and winds up with a performance spec that is difficult to meet, and > nobody wants to go back up the flowdown chain and ask if the requirement > can be changed.  Indeed, the cost of doing the waiver might be more than > just buying the unnecessarily expensive part. > This phenomenon is not unique to the space business, but probably most pronounced there due to the exorbitant cost (if at all possible) of replacing one part in service that's failing. What comes on top in many other business segments, is that several steps down the ladder, people quite often don't have sufficient knowledge of the intended system and its performance metrics, and as such are not in the position to question individual requirements they're asked to fulfil. On the other hand, I also got to know people doing space projects that were making it clear that requirements were something of a moving target, explicitly showed how and where they derived from and how they impacted the end result, and actively encouraged a) questioning them, b) pointing out which ones are difficult to obtain, and c) proposing different ways to achieve the intended result. Of course that takes a bit more time and involvement upfront. But I seem to recall that those projects had an above average success rate and below average final cost. Probably less management and more engineering at work ;-) Best regards, Florian