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Re: [time-nuts] H-maser drift

JP
John Ponsonby
Tue, Nov 21, 2017 8:26 PM

There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the record straight note:

  1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside. Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow.
  2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2 molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge. Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5. below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it.
  3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011 mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length.
  4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb.
  5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of 10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.)
  6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c  Here the numerator is the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs.
  7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift.
    Cheers
    John P
There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the record straight note: 1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside. Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow. 2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2 molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge. Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5. below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it. 3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011 mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length. 4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb. 5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of 10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.) 6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c Here the numerator is the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs. 7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift. Cheers John P
DW
Dana Whitlow
Tue, Nov 21, 2017 10:47 PM

Thank you John.  That was most informative.

dana

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:26 PM, John Ponsonby jebponsonby@gmail.com
wrote:

There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the
record straight note:

  1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium
    membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is
    less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the
    palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled
    regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through
    which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate
    through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms
    and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which
    had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at
    about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside.
    Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low
    resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more
    expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few
    seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow.
  2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a
    small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2
    molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge.
    Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the
    discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass
    wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free
    electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal
    and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5.
    below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it.
  3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very
    exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011
    mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the
    middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is
    much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length.
  4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but
    of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen
    for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a
    dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a
    little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to
    manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not
    possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not
    unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb.
  5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of
    FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of
    10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H
    atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with
    FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.)
  6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling
    factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c  Here the numerator is
    the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of
    the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal
    volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity
    volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic
    field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb
    is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs.
  7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and
    illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first
    make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120
    coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long
    term drift.
    Cheers
    John P

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Thank you John. That was most informative. dana On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:26 PM, John Ponsonby <jebponsonby@gmail.com> wrote: > There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the > record straight note: > 1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium > membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is > less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the > palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled > regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through > which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate > through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms > and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which > had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at > about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside. > Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low > resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more > expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few > seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow. > 2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a > small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2 > molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge. > Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the > discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass > wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free > electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal > and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5. > below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it. > 3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very > exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011 > mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the > middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is > much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length. > 4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but > of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen > for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a > dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a > little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to > manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not > possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not > unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb. > 5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of > FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of > 10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H > atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with > FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.) > 6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling > factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c Here the numerator is > the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of > the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal > volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity > volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic > field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb > is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs. > 7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and > illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first > make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 > coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long > term drift. > Cheers > John P > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
DS
David Smith
Wed, Nov 22, 2017 12:01 AM

Yes,

Thank you John. Enjoyable reading and informative.

Dave W6TE

Sent from Mailhttps://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 for Windows 10


From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@febo.com on behalf of John Ponsonby jebponsonby@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:26:35 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] H-maser drift

There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the record straight note:

  1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside. Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow.
  2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2 molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge. Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5. below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it.
  3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011 mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length.
  4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb.
  5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of 10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.)
  6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c  Here the numerator is the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs.
  7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift.
    Cheers
    John P

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Yes, Thank you John. Enjoyable reading and informative. Dave W6TE Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@febo.com> on behalf of John Ponsonby <jebponsonby@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:26:35 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] H-maser drift There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings about H-masers. To set the record straight note: 1. The flow of hydrogen is generally controlled using a palladium membrane, though a palladium-silver alloy is to be preferred because it is less likely to crack. Only hydrogen will diffuse through the palladium-silver membrane, so as well as being a temperature controlled regulator it is also a filter. Indeed it is an isotopic filter through which even deuterium doesn’t pass. The protons are thought to migrate through the membrane and recombine on the output surface first into atoms and then into H2 molecules. I used thin walled palladium-silver tubes which had roughly the dimensions of a match stick. Hydrogen on the inside was at about twice atmospheric pressure with output into “vacuum” on the outside. Control is by heating with a large current flowing along the rather low resistance tube. Russian H-masers use nickel tubes rather than the more expensive palladium-silver. Such a “palladium leak” requires only a few seconds on Turn-On to settle to a steady flow. 2. Hydrogen from the "palladium leak” passes to a “dissociator" which is a small bulb made of heavily boronated glass, e.g. Pyrex, in which the H2 molecules are dissociated into H atoms by a non-contacting RF discharge. Atomic hydrogen recombines very readily on any metal surface so the discharge is either by magnetic or electric field acting through the glass wall. Metals are charactersised by having conduction bands full of free electrons. Boron is an electron acceptor, so Pyrex is very unlike a metal and it has a low surface recombination rate. Not as low as FEP120 (See 5. below) but one can’t line a discharge bulb with it. 3. The very high Q RF cavity (loaded Q ≈ 36000), which is tuned very exactly to the hydrogen frequency of 1,420,405,751Hz, operates in the TE011 mode in which the oscillating RF magnetic field is toroidal, going up the middle and down the outer part of the cavity. The resonant frequency is much more sensitively dependent on the cavity diameter than on its length. 4. Inside the cavity is the "storage bulb" which is made not of glass but of fused quartz. It is typically about 1mm thick. Fused quartz is chosen for its exceptionally low RF loss tangent. But of course it has a dielectric constant which results in its loading the cavity which is thus a little smaller than one first thinks. Since it is very difficult to manufacture quartz bulbs to normal engineering tolerances it is not possible to calculate how much the cavity will be loaded. So it is not unusual to manufacture the cavity to match the given storage bulb. 5. The inside of the storage bulb is coated typically with a layer of FEP120, a Dupont product akin to Teflon. An H atom can make of the order of 10,000 bounces off its surface without change of quantum state. Also H atoms won’t stick to the coating. (Non-stick frying pans are coated with FEP120 and what is true for an egg is true for an atom.) 6. The shape of the storage bulb should be chosen to maximize the “filling factor”. This is defined as: η’=Vb<Hz>^2b/Vc<Ha^2>c Here the numerator is the product of the storage bulb volume Vb times the square of the mean of the z component of the RF magnetic field Hz averaged over the internal volume of the bulb b, and the denominator is the product of the cavity volume Vc times the mean of the square of the magnitude of the RF magnetic field Ha averaged over the entire volume of the cavity c. A spherical bulb is non-optimal though may early masers had spherical storage bulbs. 7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift. Cheers John P _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cw6te%40msn.com%7C2bad2a06dabb46277abd08d5311e36e6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636468928191180274&sdata=gkZX7mCkQdJ%2BF41Z4bskwQs4i%2BQC7MEs9%2BnN%2FgFVxLw%3D&reserved=0 and follow the instructions there.
MC
Mike Cook
Wed, Nov 22, 2017 6:49 AM

Thanks for that input John.

Le 21 nov. 2017 à 21:26, John Ponsonby jebponsonby@gmail.com a écrit :
.
7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift.

Your excellent contribution addresses an issue of long term drift but Dana Whitlow’s question in a previous post which I repeat here related to a short term issue.

«  On the day of eye passage over the site ( of the eye of a hurricane) the frequency suddenly decreased by a few parts in 10^14, held about constant for roughly a week,then
resumed almost its original value and drift rate thereafter. «

Maybe you could shine some light on that reported temporary frequency offset.

Cheers
John P


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George Bernard Shaw

Thanks for that input John. > Le 21 nov. 2017 à 21:26, John Ponsonby <jebponsonby@gmail.com> a écrit : > . > 7. The RF discharge generates UV. This shines up the beam path and illuminates the bulb coating in the region where the incoming atoms first make contact with the bulb coating. This UV undoubtledly damages the FEP120 coating. The deterioration of the coating may be one of the causes of long term drift. Your excellent contribution addresses an issue of long term drift but Dana Whitlow’s question in a previous post which I repeat here related to a short term issue. « On the day of eye passage over the site ( of the eye of a hurricane) the frequency suddenly decreased by a few parts in 10^14, held about constant for roughly a week,then resumed almost its original value and drift rate thereafter. « Maybe you could shine some light on that reported temporary frequency offset. > Cheers > John P > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. » George Bernard Shaw