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UK

Ulf Kylenfall

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 4:46 PM

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

Gentlemen, I may have asked this question before... I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry? Ulf Kylenfall SM6GXV

PS

paul swed

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 5:00 PM

Ulf
A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads
are still available but can be expensive.
The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty
crude and lead to boiled batteries.
If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a
smarter modern charger.
There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little
cost. Its amazing.
If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries.
Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart
chargers.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in
the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with
thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much
re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Ulf A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive. The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries. If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger. There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing. If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in > the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with > thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much > re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

VH

Van Horn, David

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 5:17 PM

Nicads are still made.

NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others.

Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM
To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?

Ulf
A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive.
The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries.
If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger.
There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing.
If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries.
Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used
in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a
shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much
re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Nicads are still made. NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? Ulf A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive. The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries. If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger. There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing. If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used > in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a > shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much > re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow > the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

SM

S McGrath

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 5:27 PM

The local BatteriesPlus store rebuilt my 105B pack for about $150 -
there was quite a bit of extra labor involved but the pack is
completely to spec except it has more capacity than original

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Van Horn, David
david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com wrote:

Nicads are still made.

NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others.

Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM
To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?

Ulf
A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive.
The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries.
If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger.
There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing.
If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries.
Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used
in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a
shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much
re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

The local BatteriesPlus store rebuilt my 105B pack for about $150 - there was quite a bit of extra labor involved but the pack is completely to spec except it has more capacity than original On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Van Horn, David <david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > Nicads are still made. > > NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. > > Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed > Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM > To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? > > Ulf > A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive. > The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries. > If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger. > There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing. > If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. > Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > >> >> Gentlemen, >> I may have asked this question before... >> I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used >> in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a >> shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". >> So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much >> re-design of the charging circuitry? >> Ulf Kylenfall >> SM6GXV >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow >> the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

BC

Brooke Clarke

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 6:47 PM

Hi Ulf:

There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can
charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack
temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either:

Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . .
Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge
rates and higher energy density.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Ulf: There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either: 1. Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . . 2. Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge rates and higher energy density. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html -------- Original Message -------- > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

VH

Van Horn, David

Fri, Jan 5, 2018 7:05 PM

Memory... :)

I've induced the "memory effect" in NIMH cells and Nicad, and lead acid. Simply charge to the same point, then discharge to the same depth of discharge about 10x.
In the next cycle, discharge completely and you'll see the bump in pack voltage where you had discharged to previously.
Now charge and discharge again and note that the vaunted memory effect is gone.

In real use, you are highly unlikely to charge and discharge precisely to the same point that many times.
NASA uncovered this in testing batteries for satellites (very special NICAD batteries) where due to solar cells and orbital mechanics, plus very consistent loads, they were seeing the problem.

Normal use, where the pack is discharged to different points (a few percent different) is all you need to prevent this.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?

Hi Ulf:

There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either:

Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . .
Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge rates and higher energy density.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------

Gentlemen,
I may have asked this question before...
I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away".
So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry?
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Memory... :) I've induced the "memory effect" in NIMH cells and Nicad, and lead acid. Simply charge to the same point, then discharge to the same depth of discharge about 10x. In the next cycle, discharge completely and you'll see the bump in pack voltage where you had discharged to previously. Now charge and discharge again and note that the vaunted memory effect is gone. In real use, you are highly unlikely to charge and discharge precisely to the same point that many times. NASA uncovered this in testing batteries for satellites (very special NICAD batteries) where due to solar cells and orbital mechanics, plus very consistent loads, they were seeing the problem. Normal use, where the pack is discharged to different points (a few percent different) is all you need to prevent this. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 11:48 AM To: Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? Hi Ulf: There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either: 1. Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . . 2. Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge rates and higher energy density. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html -------- Original Message -------- > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?