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Dielectric constant change or bad isolator?

AB
Andrea Baldoni
Sat, Sep 15, 2018 11:12 AM

Hello.

I recently built a 500kHz oscillator with a high L and very low C. Part of
the capacitor is constituted by a plate left alone (without its counterpart
to ground) in free space, such that all surrounding conductive objects
constitute "the ground plate".

During my experiments, I put conductors and isolators near the plate; of course
I obtained variations in frequency proportional to the distance and shape of
conductors, but I noticed that a tiny change in frequency also happened when
I moved very close isolators, like PVC and PET pipes (long enough not to be
myself, the conductor to influence frequency).

I have not a ceramic or glass bar long enough to test it.

I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric constant
between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being
clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and
moderately low frequency.

Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni

Hello. I recently built a 500kHz oscillator with a high L and very low C. Part of the capacitor is constituted by a plate left alone (without its counterpart to ground) in free space, such that all surrounding conductive objects constitute "the ground plate". During my experiments, I put conductors and isolators near the plate; of course I obtained variations in frequency proportional to the distance and shape of conductors, but I noticed that a tiny change in frequency also happened when I moved very close isolators, like PVC and PET pipes (long enough not to be myself, the conductor to influence frequency). I have not a ceramic or glass bar long enough to test it. I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric constant between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and moderately low frequency. Best regards, Andrea Baldoni
DD
Dr. David Kirkby
Sat, Sep 15, 2018 12:15 PM

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 12:14 Andrea Baldoni, erm191ba3@ermione.com wrote:

Hello.

I have not a ceramic or glass bar long enough to test it.

I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric
constant
between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being
clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and
moderately low frequency.

Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni

I would have thought it more than likely. It is well  known capacitance of
capacitors very with the temperature with some types being much better than
others.

I recall someone selling some "standard  capacitors" on eBay his company
had made years ago. He claimed they were much better than the HP ones,  but
I don't know if that is true or not. He also made the point that being
several years old, their stability would have been lower than recently made
capacitor.

PTFE has the annoying characteristic that its temperature coefficient is
highest around room temperature.

I have had some useful with someone at  NPL about liquid dielectrics at
RF.

Dave.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 12:14 Andrea Baldoni, <erm191ba3@ermione.com> wrote: > Hello. > > > I have not a ceramic or glass bar long enough to test it. > > I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric > constant > between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being > clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and > moderately low frequency. > > Best regards, > Andrea Baldoni I would have thought it more than likely. It is well known capacitance of capacitors very with the temperature with some types being much better than others. I recall someone selling some "standard capacitors" on eBay his company had made years ago. He claimed they were much better than the HP ones, but I don't know if that is true or not. He also made the point that being several years old, their stability would have been lower than recently made capacitor. PTFE has the annoying characteristic that its temperature coefficient is highest around room temperature. I have had some useful with someone at NPL about liquid dielectrics at RF. Dave.
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Sun, Sep 16, 2018 9:00 AM

In message 20180915111211.GA12308@sol.ermione.com, Andrea Baldoni writes:

[...] but I noticed that a tiny change in frequency also happened when
I moved very close isolators, like PVC and PET pipes (long enough not to be
myself, the conductor to influence frequency).

Don't overlook that almost all plastic materials have eletrostatic
fields (aka: "static electricity" of considerable magnitude.

In the configuration you describe, that would shift the operating
points of your semiconductors marginally.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

-------- In message <20180915111211.GA12308@sol.ermione.com>, Andrea Baldoni writes: >[...] but I noticed that a tiny change in frequency also happened when >I moved very close isolators, like PVC and PET pipes (long enough not to be >myself, the conductor to influence frequency). Don't overlook that almost all plastic materials have eletrostatic fields (aka: "static electricity" of considerable magnitude. In the configuration you describe, that would shift the operating points of your semiconductors marginally. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
AB
Andrea Baldoni
Mon, Sep 17, 2018 5:15 PM

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 01:15:28PM +0100, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

Hello David.

I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric
constant
between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being
clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and
moderately low frequency.

I would have thought it more than likely. It is well  known capacitance of
capacitors very with the temperature with some types being much better than
others.

Sorry but I'm not sure I understood. You suggest that's due to imperfections of
the isolation so? There is an experiment I can do to check one vs. the other?

Andrea

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 01:15:28PM +0100, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: Hello David. >> I am curiuos if the effect could be due to the change in dielectric >> constant >> between air and the pipe material, or the pipe itself that, despite being >> clean, is not a so good insulator, even at low voltage (about 10V) and >> moderately low frequency. > I would have thought it more than likely. It is well known capacitance of > capacitors very with the temperature with some types being much better than > others. Sorry but I'm not sure I understood. You suggest that's due to imperfections of the isolation so? There is an experiment I can do to check one vs. the other? Andrea
EB
ed breya
Tue, Sep 18, 2018 5:42 PM

I'm not quite sure what the issue is that you're trying to resolve, but
if it's the effect of different insulating materials affecting the
frequency when brought into proximity, then that should be no surprise
at all.

The experiment uses the capacitance of the air space around it to all
the conductive materials around it, and that capacitance must include
effects of any dielectric that substitutes for some of the air as well.
I would expect that the frequency will always go downward as any
insulator (dielectric constant always higher than that of air) is
brought into proximity, and the effect will be directional, being larger
if the material is between the sensitive node and a larger or closer
conductive surface.

Ed

I'm not quite sure what the issue is that you're trying to resolve, but if it's the effect of different insulating materials affecting the frequency when brought into proximity, then that should be no surprise at all. The experiment uses the capacitance of the air space around it to all the conductive materials around it, and that capacitance must include effects of any dielectric that substitutes for some of the air as well. I would expect that the frequency will always go downward as any insulator (dielectric constant always higher than that of air) is brought into proximity, and the effect will be directional, being larger if the material is between the sensitive node and a larger or closer conductive surface. Ed