What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 03:29, David C. Partridge <
david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
The huge "elephant in the room" problem is finding a calibration lab with
an error budget that's actually good enough to calibrate any 8.5 digit
meter. More like than not (barring faults) your meter will probably be
more accurate and stable than any of their calibration equipment. I
don't know of any in the UK apart from Fluke and Keysight (I would love to
hear that there are others).
I don’t know if Keysight will calibrate other manufacturers equipment if
you are a small company, but they certainly did (do??) for very large
companies.
A friend who worked for Selex, which is a multi billion pound defence
company, said the management in Selex outsourced their calibration to
Keysight. Selex had their own metrology lab, but Keysight quoted
calibration prices far below the cost to get instruments calibrated
internally. My friend said that this was a false economy, as Keysight
charged extra for a trivial task that Selex’s metrology lab would do and
not record.
So it is worth asking Keysight, although I expect if Keysight will
calibrate non HP/Agilent/Keysight equipment, it might only be if Keysight
get a very large contract.
Keysight UK can't do the top spec calibration on a 3458A (so called
Loveland calibration) so if you want that, AFAIK it has be return shipped
to California, USA (though I've heard that Germany may have a Josephson
junction setup).
I asked on a visit to Keysight (UK) if they could calibrate a 3458A, to
which I was told yes. I might be mistaken, but I thought I was told that
they have a JJ. Since Keysight are UKAS accredited, their uncertainties
will be given on the UKAS website.
I don’t know if NPL would calibrate an 8.5 digit multimeter. They might do,
but I doubt that will be cheap.
Dave
--
Dr. David Kirkby,
NMI - who/what are they remember that this David Kirkby and I are in UK and
other as well aren't in USA ...
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Illya
Tsemenko
Sent: 01 July 2019 03:57
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Cc: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
Calibrating 8.5d meter is a challenge, but it's not as bad to need JVS. Even
with that, Your nearest NMI will be happy to provide you top notch
calibration, that is magnitude better than even 24 hour specification of the
meter, be it 3458A or whatnot. Main power of the 3458A that makes it so
special is ultra-linear ADC (which is very fragile), which makes feature
like ACAL self-calibration possible with just known 10V and 10k. So if one
to buy 8.5d meter for business purposes, getting cheaper meter + paying for
full calibration with data might be well the same as getting used 3458A,
IF lab has known 10V/10kOmega standards or want to invest in those.
I've recently got calibration by NMI directly vs JVS/QHR on my references
(U=0.02ppm 10V and 0.16ppm 10kOhm), hand-carry those home, calibrated my
3458A's and 5720A and same day performance verification yield results well
under 24 hour specifications of HP3458A/002. Even INL data for 3 out of 4 is
well inside "typical" 0.05ppm from HP:
https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/3458A/test/INL_10V_3458abcd.png
Sure, one has to have high-performance MFC, but giving the amount of DMMs I
have, trying to ship (international air shipping is no fun) even fraction on
them to standards lab calibration would cost more than getting own
calibrator and getting that in shape.
Currently doing some more tests, but I will be listing one fully-calibrated
3458A, need to cut the TEA pile. AFAIK Keysight Loveland Standards Lab
calibration is >$2.2K shipping/handling excluded. With 8.5d anything, it's
pretty much pay to play game, either way with "cheap" meter and expensive
calibrations, or expensive meter and...expensive calibrations :) No
exceptions.
Datron 1271/1281 have also 100% overrange, so it can measure up to
200mV/2V/20V/200V/1kV, which might not be obvious on first glance thru spec
sheet ;).
P.S. As happy K2002 owner, DMM7510 not even in the same league, sorry.
Hurdles with logging/fancy histograms do not sound serious in 2019, given
plenty of free open-source options available to interface and log meter
data. All one need is GPIB interface and RaspberryPi or alike, and few
evenings to figure out the basics.
---- On Mon, 01 Jul 2019 10:28:37 +0800 David C. Partridge
mailto:david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk wrote ----
Sad to say that Ametek no longer provide any support for the 7081. They also
scrapped the Commodore PETs they had with the calibration software for the
7071 and 7081 (I so wish I could have acquired one of those).
The huge "elephant in the room" problem is finding a calibration lab with an
error budget that's actually good enough to calibrate any 8.5 digit meter.
More like than not (barring faults) your meter will probably be more
accurate and stable than any of their calibration equipment. I don't know
of any in the UK apart from Fluke and Keysight (I would love to hear that
there are others). Keysight UK can't do the top spec calibration on a
3458A (so called Loveland calibration) so if you want that, AFAIK it has be
return shipped to California, USA (though I've heard that Germany may have
a Josephson junction setup). Of course it's not under power for that time
and you risk destruction of the custom VFDs ...
I suspect that my Datron 4808 is as good as or better than most cal labs in
the UK (though there must be some with at least one calibrated Fluke
5700A/5720A/5730A or Datron 4808 or similar).
PS Transmille produce an 8ppm calibrator (4010) and a 4/9ppm meter (8100) so
could probably do the job, but whether they'd do "other brand" calibration ?
David
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf
Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: 01 July 2019 01:21
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
David,
Have you considered the Solartron/Ametek 7081?
If I'm not mistaken, you posted some images of their EPROM's several years
ago.
It's slow sampling at 8.5 digit resolution but seems user friendly and, at
least several years ago, was able to be calibrated by Ametek in England. I
sent two over there for calibration.
Good luck.
Joe
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In my opinion the $2k+ JJ calibration would be massive overkill for anyone with a “normal” home lab. I am having a hard time justifying the $777 per incident calibration cost as I’m no longer providing services that require anywhere near the level of accuracy and the traceability it provides, nor do I maintain the lab environmental requirements as strictly as I once did. My 34401A is more than sufficient for what I do now; that’s part of what’s spurring the thinning of the herd.
Steve
WB0DBS
On Jul 1, 2019, at 5:06 AM, David C. Partridge david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk wrote:
NMI - who/what are they remember that this David Kirkby and I are in UK and
other as well aren't in USA ...
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Illya
Tsemenko
Sent: 01 July 2019 03:57
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Cc: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
Calibrating 8.5d meter is a challenge, but it's not as bad to need JVS. Even
with that, Your nearest NMI will be happy to provide you top notch
calibration, that is magnitude better than even 24 hour specification of the
meter, be it 3458A or whatnot. Main power of the 3458A that makes it so
special is ultra-linear ADC (which is very fragile), which makes feature
like ACAL self-calibration possible with just known 10V and 10k. So if one
to buy 8.5d meter for business purposes, getting cheaper meter + paying for
full calibration with data might be well the same as getting used 3458A,
IF lab has known 10V/10kOmega standards or want to invest in those.
I've recently got calibration by NMI directly vs JVS/QHR on my references
(U=0.02ppm 10V and 0.16ppm 10kOhm), hand-carry those home, calibrated my
3458A's and 5720A and same day performance verification yield results well
under 24 hour specifications of HP3458A/002. Even INL data for 3 out of 4 is
well inside "typical" 0.05ppm from HP:
https://xdevs.com/doc/HP_Agilent_Keysight/3458A/test/INL_10V_3458abcd.png
Sure, one has to have high-performance MFC, but giving the amount of DMMs I
have, trying to ship (international air shipping is no fun) even fraction on
them to standards lab calibration would cost more than getting own
calibrator and getting that in shape.
Currently doing some more tests, but I will be listing one fully-calibrated
3458A, need to cut the TEA pile. AFAIK Keysight Loveland Standards Lab
calibration is >$2.2K shipping/handling excluded. With 8.5d anything, it's
pretty much pay to play game, either way with "cheap" meter and expensive
calibrations, or expensive meter and...expensive calibrations :) No
exceptions.
Datron 1271/1281 have also 100% overrange, so it can measure up to
200mV/2V/20V/200V/1kV, which might not be obvious on first glance thru spec
sheet ;).
P.S. As happy K2002 owner, DMM7510 not even in the same league, sorry.
Hurdles with logging/fancy histograms do not sound serious in 2019, given
plenty of free open-source options available to interface and log meter
data. All one need is GPIB interface and RaspberryPi or alike, and few
evenings to figure out the basics.
---- On Mon, 01 Jul 2019 10:28:37 +0800 David C. Partridge
mailto:david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk wrote ----
Sad to say that Ametek no longer provide any support for the 7081. They also
scrapped the Commodore PETs they had with the calibration software for the
7071 and 7081 (I so wish I could have acquired one of those).
The huge "elephant in the room" problem is finding a calibration lab with an
error budget that's actually good enough to calibrate any 8.5 digit meter.
More like than not (barring faults) your meter will probably be more
accurate and stable than any of their calibration equipment. I don't know
of any in the UK apart from Fluke and Keysight (I would love to hear that
there are others). Keysight UK can't do the top spec calibration on a
3458A (so called Loveland calibration) so if you want that, AFAIK it has be
return shipped to California, USA (though I've heard that Germany may have
a Josephson junction setup). Of course it's not under power for that time
and you risk destruction of the custom VFDs ...
I suspect that my Datron 4808 is as good as or better than most cal labs in
the UK (though there must be some with at least one calibrated Fluke
5700A/5720A/5730A or Datron 4808 or similar).
PS Transmille produce an 8ppm calibrator (4010) and a 4/9ppm meter (8100) so
could probably do the job, but whether they'd do "other brand" calibration ?
David
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf
Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: 01 July 2019 01:21
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
David,
Have you considered the Solartron/Ametek 7081?
If I'm not mistaken, you posted some images of their EPROM's several years
ago.
It's slow sampling at 8.5 digit resolution but seems user friendly and, at
least several years ago, was able to be calibrated by Ametek in England. I
sent two over there for calibration.
Good luck.
Joe
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I know one of the Transmille employees in the UK, I suspect they would be happy to calibrate other brands, I suggest giving them a call.
From: volt-nuts volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of David C. Partridge david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk
Sent: 01 July 2019 02:28
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
Sad to say that Ametek no longer provide any support for the 7081. They also scrapped the Commodore PETs they had with the calibration software for the 7071 and 7081 (I so wish I could have acquired one of those).
The huge "elephant in the room" problem is finding a calibration lab with an error budget that's actually good enough to calibrate any 8.5 digit meter. More like than not (barring faults) your meter will probably be more accurate and stable than any of their calibration equipment. I don't know of any in the UK apart from Fluke and Keysight (I would love to hear that there are others). Keysight UK can't do the top spec calibration on a 3458A (so called Loveland calibration) so if you want that, AFAIK it has be return shipped to California, USA (though I've heard that Germany may have a Josephson junction setup). Of course it's not under power for that time and you risk destruction of the custom VFDs ...
I suspect that my Datron 4808 is as good as or better than most cal labs in the UK (though there must be some with at least one calibrated Fluke 5700A/5720A/5730A or Datron 4808 or similar).
PS Transmille produce an 8ppm calibrator (4010) and a 4/9ppm meter (8100) so could probably do the job, but whether they'd do "other brand" calibration ?
David
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: 01 July 2019 01:21
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
David,
Have you considered the Solartron/Ametek 7081?
If I'm not mistaken, you posted some images of their EPROM's several years ago.
It's slow sampling at 8.5 digit resolution but seems user friendly and, at least several years ago, was able to be calibrated by Ametek in England. I sent two over there for calibration.
Good luck.
Joe
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
For those interested in calibration/adjustment of the Solartron 7081, I am doing that.
Gesendet: Montag, 01. Juli 2019 um 19:07 Uhr
Von: "m k" m1k3k1@hotmail.com
An: "'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'" volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
I know one of the Transmille employees in the UK, I suspect they would be happy to calibrate other brands, I suggest giving them a call.
From: volt-nuts volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of David C. Partridge david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk
Sent: 01 July 2019 02:28
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
Sad to say that Ametek no longer provide any support for the 7081. They also scrapped the Commodore PETs they had with the calibration software for the 7071 and 7081 (I so wish I could have acquired one of those).
The huge "elephant in the room" problem is finding a calibration lab with an error budget that's actually good enough to calibrate any 8.5 digit meter. More like than not (barring faults) your meter will probably be more accurate and stable than any of their calibration equipment. I don't know of any in the UK apart from Fluke and Keysight (I would love to hear that there are others). Keysight UK can't do the top spec calibration on a 3458A (so called Loveland calibration) so if you want that, AFAIK it has be return shipped to California, USA (though I've heard that Germany may have a Josephson junction setup). Of course it's not under power for that time and you risk destruction of the custom VFDs ...
I suspect that my Datron 4808 is as good as or better than most cal labs in the UK (though there must be some with at least one calibrated Fluke 5700A/5720A/5730A or Datron 4808 or similar).
PS Transmille produce an 8ppm calibrator (4010) and a 4/9ppm meter (8100) so could probably do the job, but whether they'd do "other brand" calibration ?
David
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: 01 July 2019 01:21
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit multimeters?
David,
Have you considered the Solartron/Ametek 7081?
If I'm not mistaken, you posted some images of their EPROM's several years ago.
It's slow sampling at 8.5 digit resolution but seems user friendly and, at least several years ago, was able to be calibrated by Ametek in England. I sent two over there for calibration.
Good luck.
Joe
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Do let us know what they say, and want to charge ...
Thanks
David
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of
acbern@gmx.de
Sent: 08 July 2019 13:19
To: volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
For those interested in calibration/adjustment of the Solartron 7081, I am
doing that.
I believe the last owners of Solatron were Amtek. They advised me about a
year ago that CALMET Laboratory Services at Kingson
can calibrate the 7081. CALMET Laboratory Services is a UKAS accredited
laboratory.
Someone mentioned further up this thread about me posting ROM images. It
was not me. I don't even have one of the meters, so would not be that
interested in ROMs at the minute.
Dave
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 01:45, Steve - Home steve-krull@cox.net wrote:
Unfortunately Ametek at Farnborough (where the 7081 was designed and
manufactured by Solartron) are no longer calibrating the 7081. I was by
there about the time your meters were being calibrated, Joe. I’m not sure
they’re even in business now as the last time I was by the business park in
February this year their sign was gone.
Steve
WB0DBS
On Jun 30, 2019, at 8:20 PM, J. L. Trantham jltran@att.net wrote:
David,
Have you considered the Solartron/Ametek 7081?
If I'm not mistaken, you posted some images of their EPROM's several
years ago.
It's slow sampling at 8.5 digit resolution but seems user friendly and,
at least several years ago, was able to be calibrated by Ametek in
England. I sent two over there for calibration.
Good luck.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of
Dr. David Kirkby
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2019 6:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: [volt-nuts] What are the best of the low(ish) cost 8.5 digit
multimeters?
I would like to get an 8.5 digit multimeter, but an Agilent, Fluke or
Keithley is outside my budget. There are quite a few other 8.5 digit
multimeters around, but I was wondering what is the best of the cheaper
ones. I really don’t want to spend more than £1000 (GBP) and preferably
less.
There’s a Datron/Wavetek 1271 on eBay at a price of £2450 or offer, but
recent ones sold in the UK have gone for £800. I have emailed the seller
of
that, as I have bought from him before. He can sometimes be quite
flexible
on prices, especially if one deals outside eBay.
I want to avoid buying something that is impossible to get calibrated,
but
I can’t afford to buy a 3458A or similar.
Dave
Dr. David Kirkby,
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--
Dr David Kirkby Ph.D C.Eng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, CHELMSFORD,
Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom.
Registered in England and Wales as company number 08914892
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel 01621-680100 / +44 1621-680100