Attila Kinali

Hi, I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl

Attila wrote: >These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 >which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. > >So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? Ummmm -- two more digits?? Given the difficulty of improving accuracy and precision by two orders of magnitude over a 6-1/2 digit meter, it's surprising they aren't $30k. The comparable Fluke is the 8508A, not the 8845 (which is comparable to the HP 3456A). Another generally comparable meter is the Keithly 2002. The Solartron/Schlumberger (and I think a third vendor sold the same meter) 7081 is the value leader in 8-1/2 digit meters, but in practice they are not in the same league as the 3458A/8508A/2002 meters. Best regards, Charles

In message <20140116193407.2daf5e3fbefdda6e64062d18@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w rites: >Hi, > >I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries >are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. >These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 >which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. > >So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? 8.5 vs. 6.5 digits. Read the HP Journal issue about it -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> writes: > In message <20140116193407.2daf5e3fbefdda6e64062d18@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w > rites: >>Hi, >> >>I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries >>are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. >>These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 >>which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. >> >>So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? > > 8.5 vs. 6.5 digits. A hundred times better :) > Read the HP Journal issue about it Also it is still a current model, and their top of the range, despite being 25 years old! Around $10,000 new. -- John Devereux

Hi Attila In practical terms, that most expensive comodity - time is the biggest cost driver. While the components appear to be the same as "cheaper" meters, many of will have been carefully selected for best performance from a larger batch. They may also have been "burned-in" for stability. These processes take time and time is money. The selection or burn-in may have been done by the supplier but they still pass on the cost. Leakage currents and thermal EMF's have a larger impact at higher accuracy. This drives the use of more expensive materials such as PTFE insulators, exotic alloys for resistors, switch / relay contacts  and beryllium copper input connectors. You can't tell most of these differences by casual observation (itwould need XRF or chemical analysis to tell beryllium copper from other alloys). Robert G8RPI. ________________________________ From: Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> To: volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2014, 18:34 Subject: [volt-nuts] What makes a HP3458A so expensive Hi, I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive?             Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life.             -- Sophie Scholl _______________________________________________ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.

It isn't just the materials in the 3458A meter and what they cost.  It

I worked for a small company that made ATE for Discrete Semiconductors.

Our rule of thumb was to multiply the cost of the systems by 3 times

So I don't think that what HP/AGILENT/KEYSIGHT is charging for the 3458A

Attila: It isn't just the materials in the 3458A meter and what they cost. It is the massive development time and effort, just trying to verify the linearity of the ADC and stability of the reference and so on. Then there is the ongoing time that must be spent on insuring that the critical components are with in specs, with incoming inspections. My guess is that HP had to check a bunch of LTZ1000As just to get some that would working correctly. I am sure that HP built many reference boards that failed long term testing and needed to be trashed. Read all of the articles on this product. I worked for a small company that made ATE for Discrete Semiconductors. I was constantly working on incoming inspections to insure that critical components were up to our standards to guarantee that the final product would perform as advertised. When you are generating 1600 volts DC and switching that kind of voltage between leads on the semiconductor, the breakdown voltage of the relays and reed switches become critical. The switching time of relays also is critical. When you are trying to measure 1 pa in an ATE environment things get difficult if you are not careful with the components. Our rule of thumb was to multiply the cost of the systems by 3 times over the actual materials and assembly costs. This was done just to insure we could make a profit (sometimes) and cover engineering costs on both existing products and new projects. So I don't think that what HP/AGILENT/KEYSIGHT is charging for the 3458A is out of line. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Attila Kinali" <attila@kinali.ch> To: <volt-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:34 AM Subject: [volt-nuts] What makes a HP3458A so expensive > Hi, > > I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries > are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. > These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 > which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF new. > > So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? > > Attila Kinali > > -- > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > -- Sophie Scholl > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

 It isn't just the materials in the 3458A meter and what they cost.  It

 I worked for a small company that made ATE for Discrete Semiconductors.

 Our rule of thumb was to multiply the cost of the systems by 3 times

 So I don't think that what HP/AGILENT/KEYSIGHT is charging for the

I do know the reference boards are burnt in and stability data analyzed to select the ones that will make it into meters. They are also stored hot. If the board is turned off its stability degrades. Agilent had a bad batch of high stability boards when manufacturing was moved off shore because as soon as they met speck they were harvested to make room for more boards. The some of the harvested boards drifted out of spec. The fix was to leave them powered up in a meter for 3 mo. to get back to spec. You should never turn a 3458A off. The longer it is on the more stable it gets. On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Bill Gold <wpgold3637@att.net> wrote: > Attila: > > It isn't just the materials in the 3458A meter and what they cost. It > is the massive development time and effort, just trying to verify the > linearity of the ADC and stability of the reference and so on. Then there > is the ongoing time that must be spent on insuring that the critical > components are with in specs, with incoming inspections. My guess is that > HP had to check a bunch of LTZ1000As just to get some that would working > correctly. I am sure that HP built many reference boards that failed long > term testing and needed to be trashed. Read all of the articles on this > product. > > I worked for a small company that made ATE for Discrete Semiconductors. > I was constantly working on incoming inspections to insure that critical > components were up to our standards to guarantee that the final product > would perform as advertised. When you are generating 1600 volts DC and > switching that kind of voltage between leads on the semiconductor, the > breakdown voltage of the relays and reed switches become critical. The > switching time of relays also is critical. When you are trying to measure > 1 > pa in an ATE environment things get difficult if you are not careful with > the components. > > Our rule of thumb was to multiply the cost of the systems by 3 times > over the actual materials and assembly costs. This was done just to insure > we could make a profit (sometimes) and cover engineering costs on both > existing products and new projects. > > So I don't think that what HP/AGILENT/KEYSIGHT is charging for the > 3458A > is out of line. > > Bill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Attila Kinali" <attila@kinali.ch> > To: <volt-nuts@febo.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:34 AM > Subject: [volt-nuts] What makes a HP3458A so expensive > > > > Hi, > > > > I recently got my hands on a HP3458A (unfortunately, the NVRAM batteries > > are dead, but that's another story) and started digging around a bit. > > These beasts are sold for 3kUSD and up on ebay, while e.g. a Fluke 8845 > > which seems comparable (beside being 6 1/2 digits) that sells for 1500CHF > new. > > > > So, what makes the HP3458A so expensive? > > > > Attila Kinali > > > > -- > > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement > in > > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > > -- Sophie Scholl > > _______________________________________________ > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- John Phillips