Empathy List Archives

HM

Hal Murray

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 4:18 AM

So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a
power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell
me to ignore the test results.

Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the
parts cost totals out to.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.
My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end
UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.

They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power
outages that last for more than a few minutes.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

bob@evoria.net said: > So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep > cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a > power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell > me to ignore the test results. Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the parts cost totals out to. What did you have in mind for a power line monitor? I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100. My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end UPS units, but there are still several left under $100. They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power outages that last for more than a few minutes. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam.

BS

Bob Stewart

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 4:25 AM

Nothing looks good at the moment. It may be that I just have to trust the equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it didn't happen. No, I don't like it either.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>

To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net; hmurray@megapathdsl.net
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

bob@evoria.net said:

So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a
power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell
me to ignore the test results.

Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the
parts cost totals out to.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.
My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end
UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.

They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power
outages that last for more than a few minutes.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

Nothing looks good at the moment. It may be that I just have to trust the equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it didn't happen. No, I don't like it either. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net> To: Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net>; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> Cc: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>; hmurray@megapathdsl.net Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab bob@evoria.net said: > So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep > cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a > power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell > me to ignore the test results. Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the parts cost totals out to. What did you have in mind for a power line monitor? I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100. My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end UPS units, but there are still several left under $100. They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power outages that last for more than a few minutes. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam.

PK

Poul-Henning Kamp

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 6:52 AM

In message 20160708041855.562D7406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net, Hal Mu
rray writes:

bob@evoria.net said:

So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both)

I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient
design.

The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from
20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in
the series transistors.

A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.

It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V
Battery supply input as well

I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated
rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less
than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones.

Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the
parts cost totals out to.

Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are
moving away from it.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

-------- In message <20160708041855.562D7406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Mu rray writes: >bob@evoria.net said: >> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient design. The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from 20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in the series transistors. A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency wise. It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V Battery supply input as well I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones. >Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the >parts cost totals out to. Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are moving away from it. >What did you have in mind for a power line monitor? Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

BS

Bob Stewart

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 7:41 AM

Poul,
I wouldn't know the difference between a high-quality professional power line monitor and an also-ran. Could you point me to a couple on ebay?
Bob
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>

To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com; Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
Cc: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

In message 20160708041855.562D7406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net, Hal Mu
rray writes:

bob@evoria.net said:

So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both)

I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient
design.

The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from
20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in
the series transistors.

A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.

It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V
Battery supply input as well

I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated
rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less
than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones.

Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the
parts cost totals out to.

Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are
moving away from it.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

Poul, I wouldn't know the difference between a high-quality professional power line monitor and an also-ran. Could you point me to a couple on ebay? Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GFS GPSDO list: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>; Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net> Cc: Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net> Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab -------- In message <20160708041855.562D7406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Mu rray writes: >bob@evoria.net said: >> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient design. The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from 20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in the series transistors. A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency wise. It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V Battery supply input as well I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones. >Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the >parts cost totals out to. Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are moving away from it. >What did you have in mind for a power line monitor? Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

GH

Gerhard Hoffmann

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 8:30 AM

Am 08.07.2016 um 08:52 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:

A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.

I keep wondering how this tiny transformer in the SR620
can power that baking tray full of ECL.

regards, Gerhard

Am 08.07.2016 um 08:52 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra > filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency > wise. I keep wondering how this tiny transformer in the SR620 can power that baking tray full of ECL. regards, Gerhard

BC

Bob Camp

Fri, Jul 8, 2016 1:00 PM

Hi

A 5335 / 5334 generation counter will spot a 30 ns blip. A modern MCU demo board
probably can to the same sort of thing. The cost of another (cheap) couple of counters
is probably less than mucking around with power line monitors and giant banks of batteries.

The most likely output of a really good monitor: There is a blip of some sort about every
5 to 10 minutes forever and ever ….When there is bad weather they happen every few seconds up to
a few a second. Not a lot you can make sense out of ….

====

UPS’s (except for the continuous type) are designed with an “acceptable dropout” in mind. The assumption
is that the gear downstream is OK with a cycle / half cycle / couple of cycles missing. Compared to the
sort of things a really good line monitor catches, those are giant blips. Does a 5370 chug on through a 30 ms full
line drop out and go nuts on a 3.1 (or 30 or 0.3) us wide spike at 203V? Seems unlikely. If it does, the answer is a really
good (screen room grade) line filter rather than a UPS of any sort.

====

Here’s something to try that has not yet come up:

Grounding is more likely to be the issue than anything else. Having an isolated / independantly grounded test space is a really
good idea. You can get surplus isolation transformers into the couple of KVA range for mighty cheap prices.
Coupled with a good line filter they will take out a lot of mains related issues. They will also force you to
cable up everything to the new “good ground”. It might also drive you to look at how the GPS and other
antennas are grounded and isolated from the test system. Keep in mind this is not an un-grounded
system. There still is a proper ground on it. It just isn’t grounded who knows where and who knows how.

Bob

On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:25 AM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:

Nothing looks good at the moment. It may be that I just have to trust the equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it didn't happen. No, I don't like it either.
Bob -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>

To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net; hmurray@megapathdsl.net
Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

bob@evoria.net said:

So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a
power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell
me to ignore the test results.

Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the
parts cost totals out to.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.
My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end
UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.

They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power
outages that last for more than a few minutes.

--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi A 5335 / 5334 generation counter will spot a 30 ns blip. A modern MCU demo board probably can to the same sort of thing. The cost of another (cheap) couple of counters is probably less than mucking around with power line monitors and giant banks of batteries. The most likely output of a *really* good monitor: There is a blip of some sort about every 5 to 10 minutes forever and ever ….When there is bad weather they happen every few seconds up to a few a second. Not a lot you can make sense out of …. ==== UPS’s (except for the continuous type) are designed with an “acceptable dropout” in mind. The assumption is that the gear downstream is OK with a cycle / half cycle / couple of cycles missing. Compared to the sort of things a really good line monitor catches, those are giant blips. Does a 5370 chug on through a 30 ms full line drop out and go nuts on a 3.1 (or 30 or 0.3) us wide spike at 203V? Seems unlikely. If it does, the answer is a really good (screen room grade) line filter rather than a UPS of any sort. ==== Here’s something to try that has not yet come up: Grounding is more likely to be the issue than anything else. Having an isolated / independantly grounded test space is a really good idea. You can get surplus isolation transformers into the couple of KVA range for mighty cheap prices. Coupled with a good line filter they will take out a lot of mains related issues. They will also force you to cable up everything to the new “good ground”. It might also drive you to look at how the GPS and other antennas are grounded and isolated from the test system. Keep in mind this is *not* an un-grounded system. There still is a proper ground on it. It just isn’t grounded who knows where and who knows how. Bob > On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:25 AM, Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net> wrote: > > > Nothing looks good at the moment. It may be that I just have to trust the equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it didn't happen. No, I don't like it either. > Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > GFS GPSDO list: > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info > > From: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net> > To: Bob Stewart <bob@evoria.net>; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> > Cc: Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>; hmurray@megapathdsl.net > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab > > > bob@evoria.net said: >> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep >> cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter? At this point in the process, a >> power line monitor is looking like a good solution. At least it would tell >> me to ignore the test results. > > Yes, you can build your own UPS. It would be interesting to see what the > parts cost totals out to. > > What did you have in mind for a power line monitor? > > I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100. > My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA. 2 of those cuts out some of the low end > UPS units, but there are still several left under $100. > > They will fix the blinking lights glitches. They won't fix real power > outages that last for more than a few minutes. > > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab