Empathy List Archives

JA

John Ackermann N8UR

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 5:10 PM

I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use?

Thanks!

I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use? Thanks!

BC

Bob Camp

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 5:21 PM

Hi

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be)
Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

Once set up that way, the triggering should be pretty solid. There is still the wonderful stuff about pulses that
arrive on top of each other ….

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 PM, John Ackermann N8UR jra@febo.com wrote:

I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use?

Thanks!

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Hi Set it to: 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be) 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage Once set up that way, the triggering should be pretty solid. There is still the wonderful stuff about pulses that arrive on top of each other …. Bob > On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <jra@febo.com> wrote: > > I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use? > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

JA

John Ackermann N8UR

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 7:21 PM

Thanks, Bob. I just tried that and got solid results. One nice thing about the 5370 vs this newer stuff is that the knobs and switches stay in the same place through power cycles!

On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:21 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be)
Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

Once set up that way, the triggering should be pretty solid. There is still the wonderful stuff about pulses that
arrive on top of each other ….

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 PM, John Ackermann N8UR jra@febo.com wrote:

I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use?

Thanks!

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Thanks, Bob. I just tried that and got solid results. One nice thing about the 5370 vs this newer stuff is that the knobs and switches stay in the same place through power cycles! > On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:21 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > > Hi > > Set it to: > > 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) > 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. > 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be) > 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage > > Once set up that way, the triggering should be pretty solid. There is still the wonderful stuff about pulses that > arrive on top of each other …. > > Bob > >> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:10 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <jra@febo.com> wrote: >> >> I'm fairly new to driving the 53132 and it seems to be quite a pain to set up reliable triggering for TTL-level pulses (e.g., PPS). Simply leaving it to auto-trigger sure doesn't do the trick. Any suggestions on optimum trigger settings for this use? >> >> Thanks! >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

D

David

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 9:23 PM

The new ones don't? That would be annoying.

My old Racal-Dana 1992 remembers when in standby mode but not if it
loses power.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 15:21:50 -0400, you wrote:

Thanks, Bob. I just tried that and got solid results. One nice thing about the 5370 vs this newer stuff is that the knobs and switches stay in the same place through power cycles!

The new ones don't? That would be annoying. My old Racal-Dana 1992 remembers when in standby mode but not if it loses power. On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 15:21:50 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks, Bob. I just tried that and got solid results. One nice thing about the 5370 vs this newer stuff is that the knobs and switches stay in the same place through power cycles!

CS

Charles Steinmetz

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 9:46 PM

Bob wrote:

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be)
Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

I would just add the following:

I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a
typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response
is required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that
we expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a
50% duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS,
alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading
edges and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.
If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any
significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will
just slaughter your pulse.
The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input
connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the
nominal logic level, depending on the source impedance.

Best regards,

Charles

Bob wrote: > Set it to: > > 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) > 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. > 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be) > 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage I would just add the following: 1) I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering. 2) If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will just slaughter your pulse. 4) The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal logic level, depending on the source impedance. Best regards, Charles

BK

Bob kb8tq

Fri, Sep 16, 2016 10:55 PM

Hi

Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse it may not be very obvious.

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com wrote:

Bob wrote:

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be)
Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

I would just add the following:

I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.
If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will just slaughter your pulse.
The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal logic level, depending on the source impedance.

Best regards,

Charles

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse it may not be very obvious. Bob > On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> wrote: > > Bob wrote: > >> Set it to: >> >> 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) >> 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. >> 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger should be) >> 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage > > I would just add the following: > > 1) I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering. > > 2) If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will just slaughter your pulse. > > 4) The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal logic level, depending on the source impedance. > > Best regards, > > Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

TM

Tom Miller

Sat, Sep 17, 2016 12:11 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Steinmetz" csteinmetz@yandex.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 53132A triggering

Bob wrote:

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger
should be)
Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

I would just add the following:

I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical
PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is
required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we
expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50%
duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS,
alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges
and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.
If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any
significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will
just slaughter your pulse.
The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input
connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal
logic level, depending on the source impedance.

Best regards,

Charles

Don't forget to select positive edge.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Steinmetz" <csteinmetz@yandex.com> To: <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 53132A triggering > Bob wrote: > >> Set it to: >> >> 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) >> 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. >> 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger >> should be) >> 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage > > I would just add the following: > > 1) I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical > PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is > required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we > expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% > duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, > alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges > and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering. > > 2) If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any > significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will > just slaughter your pulse. > > 4) The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input > connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal > logic level, depending on the source impedance. > > Best regards, > > Charles > > > _______________________________________________ Don't forget to select positive edge.

SS

Scott Stobbe

Sat, Sep 17, 2016 12:35 AM

For a low duty cycle pulse, the ac coupled signal will be approximately the
same as if it were dc coupled. Not sure I follow what you mean. There will
be only one rising edge for a narrow pulse ac coupled, as the falling edge
occurs much quicker than the HPF time constant.

On Friday, 16 September 2016, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple
them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse
it may not be very obvious.

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com

javascript:;> wrote:

Bob wrote:

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the

trigger should be)

Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

I would just add the following:

I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a

typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is
required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we
expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50%
duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS,
alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges
and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.

If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any

significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will
just slaughter your pulse.

The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input

connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal
logic level, depending on the source impedance.

Best regards,

Charles

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com javascript:;
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/

mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

and follow the instructions there.

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

For a low duty cycle pulse, the ac coupled signal will be approximately the same as if it were dc coupled. Not sure I follow what you mean. There will be only one rising edge for a narrow pulse ac coupled, as the falling edge occurs much quicker than the HPF time constant. On Friday, 16 September 2016, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple > them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse > it may not be very obvious. > > Bob > > > On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > > Bob wrote: > > > >> Set it to: > >> > >> 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) > >> 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. > >> 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the > trigger should be) > >> 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage > > > > I would just add the following: > > > > 1) I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a > typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is > required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we > expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% > duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, > alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges > and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering. > > > > 2) If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any > significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will > just slaughter your pulse. > > > > 4) The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input > connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal > logic level, depending on the source impedance. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

CS

Charles Steinmetz

Sat, Sep 17, 2016 3:23 AM

Bob wrote:

Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge.

??? All of the triggers I'm familiar with have slope selection (rising
edge/falling edge), and in my experience HP counters do not have
problems mistaking a falling edge for a rising edge. I suppose there's
always a first time, but....

See the attached image, which shows both the DC (green) and AC (red)
trigger channels. The value I used for C1 came from the 5370B input
amplifier. I shortened the pulse to 10uS just because 10 more uS of 0v
baseline didn't really add anything useful. I've shown two trigger
levels, 1.25v (half peak) and 0.5v. I would generally use 0.5 to 0.75v
with a 2.5v logic pulse, unless experience showed that a different value
worked better in the particular instance.

In both the DC and AC cases, the next rising edge that transits the
trigger points is the rising edge of the following PPS pulse.

Best regards,

Charles

Bob wrote: > Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. ??? All of the triggers I'm familiar with have slope selection (rising edge/falling edge), and in my experience HP counters do not have problems mistaking a falling edge for a rising edge. I suppose there's always a first time, but.... See the attached image, which shows both the DC (green) and AC (red) trigger channels. The value I used for C1 came from the 5370B input amplifier. I shortened the pulse to 10uS just because 10 more uS of 0v baseline didn't really add anything useful. I've shown two trigger levels, 1.25v (half peak) and 0.5v. I would generally use 0.5 to 0.75v with a 2.5v logic pulse, unless experience showed that a different value worked better in the particular instance. In both the DC and AC cases, the next rising edge that transits the trigger points is the rising edge of the following PPS pulse. Best regards, Charles

BC

Bob Camp

Sat, Sep 17, 2016 2:28 PM

Hi

Set it up on your 53132 and see what happens …

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:35 PM, Scott Stobbe scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com wrote:

For a low duty cycle pulse, the ac coupled signal will be approximately the
same as if it were dc coupled. Not sure I follow what you mean. There will
be only one rising edge for a narrow pulse ac coupled, as the falling edge
occurs much quicker than the HPF time constant.

On Friday, 16 September 2016, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple
them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse
it may not be very obvious.

Bob

On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com

javascript:;> wrote:

Bob wrote:

Set it to:

DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the

trigger should be)

Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage

I would just add the following:

I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a

typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is
required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we
expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50%
duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS,
alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges
and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.

If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any

significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will
just slaughter your pulse.

The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input

connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal
logic level, depending on the source impedance.

Best regards,

Charles

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com javascript:;
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/

mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

and follow the instructions there.

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and follow the instructions there.

Hi Set it up on your 53132 and see what happens … Bob > On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:35 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> wrote: > > For a low duty cycle pulse, the ac coupled signal will be approximately the > same as if it were dc coupled. Not sure I follow what you mean. There will > be only one rising edge for a narrow pulse ac coupled, as the falling edge > occurs much quicker than the HPF time constant. > > On Friday, 16 September 2016, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Most PPS signals these days are very low duty cycle. If you AC couple >> them, you can easily be triggering on the wrong edge. With the narrow pulse >> it may not be very obvious. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com >> <javascript:;>> wrote: >>> >>> Bob wrote: >>> >>>> Set it to: >>>> >>>> 1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough) >>>> 2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm. >>>> 3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the >> trigger should be) >>>> 4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage >>> >>> I would just add the following: >>> >>> 1) I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a >> typical PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS). No LF response is >> required. Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we >> expect much in this application). This is true even if the PPS is a 50% >> duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, >> alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges >> and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering. >>> >>> 2) If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it. Any >> significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will >> just slaughter your pulse. >>> >>> 4) The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input >> connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal >> logic level, depending on the source impedance. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

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53132A triggering