VH
Van Horn, David
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 5:51 PM
Enforcement.. It would be nice.
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator
may not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of
the specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible
leakage detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of
unlawful transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that
any licensed Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of
WWVB is quite likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may
I say, because you will be interfering with a public service. "I am
just syncing my clocks" is not going to impress the guys who appear in
your driveway in a white van with RDF antennas on the roof.
So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible
signal outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
Bill
KJ4SLP
On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz
csteinmetz@yandex.com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to
other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand
Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could
face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant,
you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from
the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz
receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be
unhappy about anything you
deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning,
when they try to synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting
the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure
the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require
relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can
orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains
distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall
warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the clock).
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front
and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the
western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best.
Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m ailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
the instructions there.
Enforcement.. It would be nice.
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Pummer
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
> I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
> transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator
> may not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of
> the specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible
> leakage detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of
> unlawful transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that
> any licensed Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of
> WWVB is quite likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may
> I say, because you will be interfering with a public service. "I am
> just syncing my clocks" is not going to impress the guys who appear in
> your driveway in a white van with RDF antennas on the roof.
>
> So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible
> signal outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
>
> Bill
> KJ4SLP
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz
> <csteinmetz@yandex.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
>>> * * *
>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>
>> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>>
>> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to
>> other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand
>> Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could
>> face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant,
>> you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from
>> the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz
>> receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be
>> unhappy about anything you
>> deploy.)
>>
>> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
>> actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning,
>> when they try to synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting
>> the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure
>> the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require
>> relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can
>> orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains
>> distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall
>> warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the clock).
>>
>> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front
>> and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the
>> western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best.
>> Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m ailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
>> the instructions there.
>>
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
WH
William H. Fite
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:03 PM
Granted that FCC does, at best, a spotty job of enforcement but when they
strike, they strike without warning. They won't fine you on the first
offense unless you do something really egregious but you will go on their
shit list and, once you are on it, you stay on it forever.
Besides which, "Everybody else does it" didn't work with your mom and it
won't work with Uncle Charlie.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Alex Pummer alex@pcscons.com wrote:
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
is
not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
with RDF antennas on the roof.
So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
Bill
KJ4SLP
On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
live
in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
actually
not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
to
synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
antenna
has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
also
require relocating the clock).
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity.
Granted that FCC does, at best, a spotty job of enforcement but when they
strike, they strike without warning. They won't fine you on the first
offense unless you do something really egregious but you will go on their
shit list and, once you are on it, you stay on it forever.
Besides which, "Everybody else does it" didn't work with your mom and it
won't work with Uncle Charlie.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Alex Pummer <alex@pcscons.com> wrote:
> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
> their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
> radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
> and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
> has a hand full of it?
>
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
>
> On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
>
>> I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
>> transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
>> not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
>> specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
>> detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
>> transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
>> Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
>> likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
>> will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
>> is
>> not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
>> with RDF antennas on the roof.
>>
>> So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
>> outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
>>
>> Bill
>> KJ4SLP
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Peter wrote:
>>>
>>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>>>
>>>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
>>>> * * *
>>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>>
>>>> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>>>
>>> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
>>> WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
>>> the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
>>> enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
>>> screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
>>> complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
>>> live
>>> in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
>>> deploy.)
>>>
>>> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
>>> actually
>>> not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
>>> to
>>> synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
>>> antenna
>>> has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
>>> toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
>>> bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
>>> is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
>>> other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
>>> also
>>> require relocating the clock).
>>>
>>> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
>>> rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
>>> exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
>>> directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity.
CJ
Clint Jay
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:15 PM
Don't forget power line networking equipment but just because one
interference source is tolerated or in order by the authorities doesn't
mean it's ok to create another.
Those switchers and even the hardware they power (I'm thinking of satellite
receivers which spew all sorts of hash over HF bands) are terrible sources
of unmonitored QRM.
On 10 Nov 2016 17:46, "Alex Pummer" alex@pcscons.com wrote:
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
is
not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
with RDF antennas on the roof.
So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
Bill
KJ4SLP
On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
live
in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
actually
not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
to
synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
antenna
has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
also
require relocating the clock).
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Don't forget power line networking equipment but just because one
interference source is tolerated or in order by the authorities doesn't
mean it's ok to create another.
Those switchers and even the hardware they power (I'm thinking of satellite
receivers which spew all sorts of hash over HF bands) are terrible sources
of unmonitored QRM.
On 10 Nov 2016 17:46, "Alex Pummer" <alex@pcscons.com> wrote:
> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
> their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
> radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
> and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
> has a hand full of it?
>
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
>
>> I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
>> transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
>> not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
>> specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
>> detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
>> transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
>> Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
>> likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
>> will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
>> is
>> not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
>> with RDF antennas on the roof.
>>
>> So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
>> outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
>>
>> Bill
>> KJ4SLP
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Peter wrote:
>>>
>>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>>>
>>>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
>>>> * * *
>>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>>
>>>> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>>>
>>> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
>>> WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
>>> the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
>>> enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
>>> screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
>>> complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
>>> live
>>> in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
>>> deploy.)
>>>
>>> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
>>> actually
>>> not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
>>> to
>>> synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
>>> antenna
>>> has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
>>> toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
>>> bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
>>> is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
>>> other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
>>> also
>>> require relocating the clock).
>>>
>>> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
>>> rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
>>> exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
>>> directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
WH
William H. Fite
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:15 PM
It sure would. FCC has just given up on 11M. Guys in Florida with
generators and radios in their pick-em-up trucks driving on the beach and
emitting 2KW.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
Enforcement.. It would be nice.
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex
Pummer
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator
may not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of
the specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible
leakage detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of
unlawful transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that
any licensed Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of
WWVB is quite likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may
I say, because you will be interfering with a public service. "I am
just syncing my clocks" is not going to impress the guys who appear in
your driveway in a white van with RDF antennas on the roof.
So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible
signal outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
Bill
KJ4SLP
On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz
csteinmetz@yandex.com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to
other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand
Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could
face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant,
you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from
the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz
receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be
unhappy about anything you
deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning,
when they try to synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting
the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure
the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require
relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can
orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains
distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall
warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front
and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the
western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best.
Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m ailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
the instructions there.
--
Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity.
It sure would. FCC has just given up on 11M. Guys in Florida with
generators and radios in their pick-em-up trucks driving on the beach and
emitting 2KW.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhorn@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> Enforcement.. It would be nice.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alex
> Pummer
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:39 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nutty time-nuttery with WWVB
>
> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
> their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
> radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
> and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
> has a hand full of it?
>
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
> > I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
> > transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator
> > may not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of
> > the specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible
> > leakage detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of
> > unlawful transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that
> > any licensed Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of
> > WWVB is quite likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may
> > I say, because you will be interfering with a public service. "I am
> > just syncing my clocks" is not going to impress the guys who appear in
> > your driveway in a white van with RDF antennas on the roof.
> >
> > So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible
> > signal outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
> >
> > Bill
> > KJ4SLP
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz
> > <csteinmetz@yandex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Peter wrote:
> >>
> >> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
> >>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
> >>> * * *
> >>> Has anyone tried this?
> >>>
> >> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
> >>
> >> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to
> >> other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand
> >> Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could
> >> face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant,
> >> you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from
> >> the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz
> >> receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be
> >> unhappy about anything you
> >> deploy.)
> >>
> >> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
> >> actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning,
> >> when they try to synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting
> >> the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure
> >> the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require
> >> relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can
> >> orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains
> >> distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall
> >> warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the
> clock).
> >>
> >> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front
> >> and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the
> >> western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best.
> >> Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Charles
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m ailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
> >> the instructions there.
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity.
BC
Bob Camp
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:16 PM
Hi
This is worth repeating….
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try to synch).
The WWVB signal (even on the east coast) is quite massive in the middle of the night. The same can be said of the MSF signal from across the Atlantic, The problem is unlikely to be insufficient signal.
Bob
It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the clock).
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
This is worth repeating….
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> wrote:
>
> Peter wrote:
>
>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
>> * * *
>> Has anyone tried this?
>
> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>
> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you live in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you deploy.)
>
> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is actually not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try to synch).
The WWVB signal (even on the east coast) is quite massive in the middle of the night. The same can be said of the MSF signal from across the Atlantic, The problem is unlikely to be insufficient signal.
Bob
> It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its antenna has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may also require relocating the clock).
>
> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
CS
Charles Steinmetz
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:28 PM
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down
with their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and
radiating radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that
FFC approved and not approved switching mode power supplies
SMPSs are "incidental radiators" under Part 15 (these days, some are
"unintentional radiators").
As a practical matter, the Enforcement Division takes "intentional
radiators" (like a WWVB simulator or re-transmitter, or a pirate radio
station) much more seriously than IRs and URs.
Best regards,
Charles
Alex wrote:
> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down
> with their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and
> radiating radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that
> FFC approved and not approved switching mode power supplies
SMPSs are "incidental radiators" under Part 15 (these days, some are
"unintentional radiators").
As a practical matter, the Enforcement Division takes "intentional
radiators" (like a WWVB simulator or re-transmitter, or a pirate radio
station) much more seriously than IRs and URs.
Best regards,
Charles
VH
Van Horn, David
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 6:45 PM
I have, for many years, wished the FCC would get serious on enforcement.
I've dealt with CEOs who said basically "ok, so it's illegal, who's going to catch us?"
I have on occasion had to physically stop shipments from being made.
If we had enforcement with TEETH then it would be easy to make the case to management that they stand a good chance of getting spanked in the wallet.
That's the only place a corporation has pain receptors.
I have, for many years, wished the FCC would get serious on enforcement.
I've dealt with CEOs who said basically "ok, so it's illegal, who's going to catch us?"
I have on occasion had to physically stop shipments from being made.
If we had enforcement with TEETH then it would be easy to make the case to management that they stand a good chance of getting spanked in the wallet.
That's the only place a corporation has pain receptors.
AP
Alex Pummer
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 9:17 PM
Well, there is such zoo, that nobody could find what coming from where,
I tried with an R&S EMI receiver and antennas, but on the other hand one
could use the high level of energy to supply the power for small
circuits....
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 10:15 AM, Clint Jay wrote:
Don't forget power line networking equipment but just because one
interference source is tolerated or in order by the authorities doesn't
mean it's ok to create another.
Those switchers and even the hardware they power (I'm thinking of satellite
receivers which spew all sorts of hash over HF bands) are terrible sources
of unmonitored QRM.
On 10 Nov 2016 17:46, "Alex Pummer" alex@pcscons.com wrote:
And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
has a hand full of it?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
is
not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
with RDF antennas on the roof.
So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
Bill
KJ4SLP
On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz csteinmetz@yandex.com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
* * *
Has anyone tried this?
Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
live
in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
deploy.)
Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
actually
not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
to
synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
antenna
has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
also
require relocating the clock).
The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Well, there is such zoo, that nobody could find what coming from where,
I tried with an R&S EMI receiver and antennas, but on the other hand one
could use the high level of energy to supply the power for small
circuits....
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 11/10/2016 10:15 AM, Clint Jay wrote:
> Don't forget power line networking equipment but just because one
> interference source is tolerated or in order by the authorities doesn't
> mean it's ok to create another.
>
> Those switchers and even the hardware they power (I'm thinking of satellite
> receivers which spew all sorts of hash over HF bands) are terrible sources
> of unmonitored QRM.
>
> On 10 Nov 2016 17:46, "Alex Pummer" <alex@pcscons.com> wrote:
>
>> And how about that many, many "radiator" which are moving up and down with
>> their carriers and don't give a damn about FCC Part 15 and radiating
>> radiating day and night with substantial power, I meant that FFC approved
>> and not approved switching mode power supplies, of which every household
>> has a hand full of it?
>>
>> 73
>> KJ6UHN
>> Alex
>>
>> On 11/10/2016 9:22 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
>>
>>> I heartily second Charles' admonition regarding FCC PART 15 unlicensed
>>> transmissions. Part 15 explicitly states that an unlicensed operator may
>>> not cause interference with any licensed transmission. Because of the
>>> specific purpose of WWV/WWVB transmissions, any discernible leakage
>>> detectable by any other user is prima facie evidence of unlawful
>>> transmission and subject to a heavy fine. I assure you that any licensed
>>> Part 97 user who detects your emissions over the top of WWVB is quite
>>> likely to rat you out to Uncle Charlie. And should, may I say, because you
>>> will be interfering with a public service. "I am just syncing my clocks"
>>> is
>>> not going to impress the guys who appear in your driveway in a white van
>>> with RDF antennas on the roof.
>>>
>>> So....be very damned sure that you are not radiating a discernible signal
>>> outside of the immediate vicinity of your clocks.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> KJ4SLP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Peter wrote:
>>>> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
>>>>
>>>>> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
>>>>> * * *
>>>>> Has anyone tried this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Some on the list have, and I'm sure they will provide the details.
>>>> Others have mentioned the potential problems with interference to other
>>>> WWVB users. For starters, make sure you study and understand Part 15 of
>>>> the FCC rules before you put it on the air, or you could face a nasty
>>>> enforcement action. (Even if you are Part 15-compliant, you may still
>>>> screw up other users' reception and get a visit from the FCC when they
>>>> complain. I operate several very sensitive 60kHz receivers -- if you
>>>> live
>>>> in my neighborhood, I'm almost certain to be unhappy about anything you
>>>> deploy.)
>>>>
>>>> Note that the problem with most "atomic" clocks that I've seen is
>>>> actually
>>>> not insufficient signal (in the wee hours of the morning, when they try
>>>> to
>>>> synch). It is either excessive QRM, or orienting the clock so its
>>>> antenna
>>>> has a null toward Fort Collins. Make sure the antenna has a major lobe
>>>> toward Fort Collins (this may require relocating the entire clock or
>>>> bringing the antenna out so you can orient it independently), and that it
>>>> is well clear of the AC mains distribution wiring in your house and any
>>>> other sources of QRM (wall warts, CFL lamps, LED lamps, etc. (this may
>>>> also
>>>> require relocating the clock).
>>>>
>>>> The typical clock using a loopstick antenna has lobes to the front and
>>>> rear, and nulls to the sides. Thus, mounting the clock on the western
>>>> exterior wall (for users on the east coast) is usually best. Putting it
>>>> directly in front of a west-facing window may help.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>>>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13383 - Release Date: 11/10/16
AP
Alex Pummer
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 9:35 PM
basically one could make a very good 60kHz clock distributor system, by
running a large loop around the property, -- as long as the loop's
length is much less than the wave length the current will be constant
along the loop -- that way you will have reception inside the loop with
vertical magnetic, and very weak reception outside of the loop. At the
clocks you need to turn the antenna from horizontal to vertical, and you
could use such low power a few mW, that the FCC would not worry about
it, similar system is used as invisible fence for dogs, but for the
clock one need much less power, since the clocks have a very sensitive
receiver unlike the "dogs receiver".
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
alias Dr.Alexander Pummer,
PCS Consultants
Pleasanton
On 11/10/2016 10:45 AM, Van Horn, David wrote:
I have, for many years, wished the FCC would get serious on enforcement.
I've dealt with CEOs who said basically "ok, so it's illegal, who's going to catch us?"
I have on occasion had to physically stop shipments from being made.
If we had enforcement with TEETH then it would be easy to make the case to management that they stand a good chance of getting spanked in the wallet.
That's the only place a corporation has pain receptors.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13383 - Release Date: 11/10/16
basically one could make a very good 60kHz clock distributor system, by
running a large loop around the property, -- as long as the loop's
length is much less than the wave length the current will be constant
along the loop -- that way you will have reception inside the loop with
vertical magnetic, and very weak reception outside of the loop. At the
clocks you need to turn the antenna from horizontal to vertical, and you
could use such low power a few mW, that the FCC would not worry about
it, similar system is used as invisible fence for dogs, but for the
clock one need much less power, since the clocks have a very sensitive
receiver unlike the "dogs receiver".
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
alias Dr.Alexander Pummer,
PCS Consultants
Pleasanton
On 11/10/2016 10:45 AM, Van Horn, David wrote:
> I have, for many years, wished the FCC would get serious on enforcement.
> I've dealt with CEOs who said basically "ok, so it's illegal, who's going to catch us?"
> I have on occasion had to physically stop shipments from being made.
>
> If we had enforcement with TEETH then it would be easy to make the case to management that they stand a good chance of getting spanked in the wallet.
> That's the only place a corporation has pain receptors.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13383 - Release Date: 11/10/16
RN
Ruslan Nabioullin
Thu, Nov 10, 2016 9:52 PM
On 11/10/2016 07:18 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
I have a few of those "atomic" clocks that receive WWVB to set the time.
However since I live on the east coast they may only pick up the signal
once or twice per year.
Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
The signal at 60 KHz might be able to be produced directly by some
sound cards. With that and a ferrite rod antenna I might get
reliable time elsewhere in my house outside of my lab.
Has anyone tried this?
Pete.
To be honest, this is very impractical and backward-thinking. I would
suggest instead upgrading to the Internet-of-things paradigm, replacing
these time-of-day displays with full computers running NTP and connected
to your LAN (Android smartwatches; repurposed old smartphones, tablets,
laptops, etc.; and smartclocks [I'm certain that some Silicon Valley
genius'' has already come out with such an invention'' and the
Chinese are churning out cheap knockoffs]), which will query your home
metrology lab's NTP server(s), and instead using WWVB as an additional
timing signal for diversifying your timing source portfolio (with a good
antenna, of course), if you haven't done so already (though such
products appear to be extremely sparse nowadays, for civilian-minded
users have superficially reasoned that GPS is all that is necessary).
-Ruslan
On 11/10/2016 07:18 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
> I have a few of those "atomic" clocks that receive WWVB to set the time.
> However since I live on the east coast they may only pick up the signal
> once or twice per year.
>
> Could I implement my own personal WWVB transmitter that would
> be powerful enough to be picked up by the clocks in my house?
> The signal at 60 KHz might be able to be produced directly by some
> sound cards. With that and a ferrite rod antenna I might get
> reliable time elsewhere in my house outside of my lab.
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> Pete.
To be honest, this is very impractical and backward-thinking. I would
suggest instead upgrading to the Internet-of-things paradigm, replacing
these time-of-day displays with full computers running NTP and connected
to your LAN (Android smartwatches; repurposed old smartphones, tablets,
laptops, etc.; and smartclocks [I'm certain that some Silicon Valley
``genius'' has already come out with such an ``invention'' and the
Chinese are churning out cheap knockoffs]), which will query your home
metrology lab's NTP server(s), and instead using WWVB as an additional
timing signal for diversifying your timing source portfolio (with a good
antenna, of course), if you haven't done so already (though such
products appear to be extremely sparse nowadays, for civilian-minded
users have superficially reasoned that GPS is all that is necessary).
-Ruslan
