Favorite counters (current production)?
What current production freq counters do people like for general
time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter
for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless.
Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems
to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I
missing any?
Rank your preferences!
--
newell N5TNL
Hi
There is no perfect answer. I’d go with the 53230 simply because it might be supported
the longest.
Bob
On Nov 10, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Scott Newell newell+timenuts@n5tnl.com wrote:
What current production freq counters do people like for general time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless. Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I missing any?
Rank your preferences!
--
newell N5TNL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
I would say CNT-99/91 and SR-620.
Bob has a point about 53230, since the others is older, but on the other
hand, it is a bit of a gamble. There are many aspects that goes into the
longlivety of a product, such as access to components, but also strategy
of companies.
The CNT-90/91 an 53230 both have graphical presentation, which is very
beneficial. The SR-620 still have better performance even being older
than everything else.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/10/2017 05:37 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
There is no perfect answer. I’d go with the 53230 simply because it might be supported
the longest.
Bob
On Nov 10, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Scott Newell newell+timenuts@n5tnl.com wrote:
What current production freq counters do people like for general time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless. Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I missing any?
Rank your preferences!
--
newell N5TNL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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The CNT-90/91 an 53230 both have graphical presentation, which is very
beneficial. The SR-620 still have better performance even being older than
everything else.
Magnus can you elaborate on the SR-620 performance?
In my hands the 53230A with a spec of 20ps single-shot does about 11-13 ps
RMS for a 1PPS TI-measurement between CH1 and CH2 - so in theory a single
channel is 1/sqrt(2) better than that.
In what measurements would an SR-620 be better?
The 53230A does have a design-flaw where one of the input BNCs has a very
narrow PCB-trace which tends to break. I think I've fixed 2 or 3 counters
with that same fault.
Anders
Rank your preferences!
I echo Magnus. In almost every photo of national timing labs you will see SR620's in use. The interface, specs, readability, and reliability are really good. Also SRS seems to support their products forever. For the curious, the full BOM and schematics are in the service manual. Note they just added the FS740 (GPSDO) but there's no update for the 620 after all these years. The downside is that they are larger, heavier, and louder than many modern instruments.
For high-performance and high-throughput the CNT-91 is my choice. Quiet, feather-light, and it's a continuous dual-edge timestamping counter with raw data output capability.
That said, when I need a quick or long-term measurement I almost always grab a HP 53132A and run it in talk-only mode, collecting data with RS232->USB. Once you get used to the 5 key (arrows & enter) UI you're all set.
About the 53230 -- When it came out I got a pair on loan from Agilent; one with and one without OCXO. When I saw how badly they handled the external REF-in and how noisy the REF-out was, I figured it was a green team that designed it and I'd give them another product life cycle to learn about precision timing. So there are no 53230A in my lab. As soon as they come out with a redesigned B version where the ext/int REF are good to 1 ps (like you'd expect with a 12 digit/s counter), I will be the first to buy one.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: magnus@rubidium.se
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?
Hi,
I would say CNT-99/91 and SR-620.
Bob has a point about 53230, since the others is older, but on the other
hand, it is a bit of a gamble. There are many aspects that goes into the
longlivety of a product, such as access to components, but also strategy
of companies.
The CNT-90/91 an 53230 both have graphical presentation, which is very
beneficial. The SR-620 still have better performance even being older
than everything else.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/10/2017 05:37 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
There is no perfect answer. I’d go with the 53230 simply because it might be supported
the longest.
Bob
On Nov 10, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Scott Newell newell+timenuts@n5tnl.com wrote:
What current production freq counters do people like for general time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless. Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I missing any?
Rank your preferences!
--
newell N5TNL
Hi,
On 11/11/2017 11:42 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Rank your preferences!
I echo Magnus. In almost every photo of national timing labs you will see SR620's in use. The interface, specs, readability, and reliability are really good. Also SRS seems to support their products forever. For the curious, the full BOM and schematics are in the service manual. Note they just added the FS740 (GPSDO) but there's no update for the 620 after all these years. The downside is that they are larger, heavier, and louder than many modern instruments.
Yeah. There is also some limitations in them, but if you follow the
instructions in the manual and maintain it properly, you have one nice
instrument. I have two, and I would rule out getting more.
I should do fan-replacement on one of mine. Not all things is as good as
they should be, but it remains one of my favorites and it keeps doing
duty in major NMI labs, because it remains good enough and it is understood.
For high-performance and high-throughput the CNT-91 is my choice. Quiet, feather-light, and it's a continuous dual-edge timestamping counter with raw data output capability.
It remains one of the nicer counters to use. The CNT-91 is a CNT-90 with
performance enhancements. Mine is a CNT-90.5 or so.
CNT-90/91 remains produced just as the SR-620. Some of the original
folks still maintain it. It would be nice with a follow-up.
That said, when I need a quick or long-term measurement I almost always grab a HP 53132A and run it in talk-only mode, collecting data with RS232->USB. Once you get used to the 5 key (arrows & enter) UI you're all set.
I use that one too, but it is not my favorite. The 53131A/132A
unfortunatly lost some of the directness and ease of us, what is today
called UX, user experience, of the previous counters. The 5335A remains
one of the best as it comes to intuitive user interfaces IMHO, also for
some of the measurement it remains relevant and useful. The 5370A/B has
it's issues, but is relatively straightforward too.
About the 53230 -- When it came out I got a pair on loan from Agilent; one with and one without OCXO. When I saw how badly they handled the external REF-in and how noisy the REF-out was, I figured it was a green team that designed it and I'd give them another product life cycle to learn about precision timing. So there are no 53230A in my lab. As soon as they come out with a redesigned B version where the ext/int REF are good to 1 ps (like you'd expect with a 12 digit/s counter), I will be the first to buy one.
Also, as being reported by the friends at Norwegian NMI, there is
something funky about. They got to borrow one from Ole Petter Rønningen.
It was there in the York EFTF 2016 poster session, and I even made a few
folks aware of it as "interesting". If I had more time, it would be
interesting to dig deeper into that issue.
A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
is that we need to know deeply what goes on in the processing and we
even end up revese-engineer the processing when the counters "improved"
processing gives us funky measures. I have myself being researching what
such processing should be doing. Only a small handful of vendors have
been attempting to look at it.
Some of its features is really nice, but so far one haven't made it onto
my bench and there is some funkyness going on that doesn't make it very
attractive to spend money on right now. A customer uses them to send
measurements over the network so they can log things. Got a bunch when
they where on sale.
That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
HP and early Agilent days.
Cheers,
Magnus
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: magnus@rubidium.se
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?
Hi,
I would say CNT-99/91 and SR-620.
Bob has a point about 53230, since the others is older, but on the other
hand, it is a bit of a gamble. There are many aspects that goes into the
longlivety of a product, such as access to components, but also strategy
of companies.
The CNT-90/91 an 53230 both have graphical presentation, which is very
beneficial. The SR-620 still have better performance even being older
than everything else.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/10/2017 05:37 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
There is no perfect answer. I’d go with the 53230 simply because it might be supported
the longest.
Bob
On Nov 10, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Scott Newell newell+timenuts@n5tnl.com wrote:
What current production freq counters do people like for general time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless. Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I missing any?
Rank your preferences!
--
newell N5TNL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Magus:
Also, as being reported by the friends at Norwegian NMI, there is
something funky about. They got to borrow one from Ole Petter Rønningen.
It was there in the York EFTF 2016 poster session, and I even made a few
folks aware of it as "interesting". If I had more time, it would be
interesting to dig deeper into that issue.
Way back in the time-nuts archives there are discussions now and then about some other low-level effects in these counters.
A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
I agree 100%. They get "too clever" for their own good and the internal design is not released. This is one reason why the TAPR TICC is so welcome. Totally open h/w and s/w. Ok, it doesn't quite compete with 20 ps full-featured high-end counters, but it's also 10x cheaper.
That said, I want to point out that the latest GPSDO / counter from Stanford Research continues their tradition of relatively open design. If you have an hour, go through the very detailed user manual, which includes theory of operation and BOM and schematics, just like the old days:
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Manuals/FS740m.pdf
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Catalog/FS740c.pdf
It's rather understated: they call it a "GPS time and frequency system" but it does frequency synthesis and pulse generation, frequency counting and time tagging, stats including ADEV, etc. You can see how they combined pieces of several other products all into this one modern instrument. Perhaps there's no need for them to ever refresh the SR620 now that the FS740 exists.
That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
HP and early Agilent days.
Right. That's also why I mentioned that if someday there's a Keysight B version of the 53230 I'm all in. Surely someone at Keysight is looking into this. They just need someone with a time nut mentality to clear up all the loose ends. Meanwhile the FS740 is on my Christmas list.
Scott:
What current production freq counters do people like for general
time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter
for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless.
Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems
to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I
missing any?
So, Scott, give the FS740 a try. See if SRS will loan you one for a few weeks and report back to us on what you think.
Thanks,
/tvb
Hi all,
just for info the ADEV noise floor of my TICC is:
1 sec 6.35 E-11
10 sec 6.33 E-12
100 sec 6.30 E-13
1k sec 6.64 E-15
best regards ,
Luciano
Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Cc
Data Sat, 11 Nov 2017 04:44:53 -0800
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?
Magus:
Also, as being reported by the friends at Norwegian NMI, there is
something funky about. They got to borrow one from Ole Petter Rønningen.
It was there in the York EFTF 2016 poster session, and I even made a few
folks aware of it as "interesting". If I had more time, it would be
interesting to dig deeper into that issue.
Way back in the time-nuts archives there are discussions now and then about some other low-level effects in these counters.
A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
I agree 100%. They get "too clever" for their own good and the internal design is not released. This is one reason why the TAPR TICC is so welcome. Totally open h/w and s/w. Ok, it doesn't quite compete with 20 ps full-featured high-end counters, but it's also 10x cheaper.
That said, I want to point out that the latest GPSDO / counter from Stanford Research continues their tradition of relatively open design. If you have an hour, go through the very detailed user manual, which includes theory of operation and BOM and schematics, just like the old days:
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Manuals/FS740m.pdf
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Catalog/FS740c.pdf
It's rather understated: they call it a "GPS time and frequency system" but it does frequency synthesis and pulse generation, frequency counting and time tagging, stats including ADEV, etc. You can see how they combined pieces of several other products all into this one modern instrument. Perhaps there's no need for them to ever refresh the SR620 now that the FS740 exists.
That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
HP and early Agilent days.
Right. That's also why I mentioned that if someday there's a Keysight B version of the 53230 I'm all in. Surely someone at Keysight is looking into this. They just need someone with a time nut mentality to clear up all the loose ends. Meanwhile the FS740 is on my Christmas list.
Scott:
What current production freq counters do people like for general
time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter
for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless.
Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems
to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I
missing any?
So, Scott, give the FS740 a try. See if SRS will loan you one for a few weeks and report back to us on what you think.
Thanks,
/tvb
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
pse replace: 1k sec 6.64 E-15
with: 1k sec 6.64 E-14
Luciano
Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
A tvb@leapsecond.com, time-nuts@febo.com
Cc
Data Sat, 11 Nov 2017 14:38:29 +0100
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?
Hi all,
just for info the ADEV noise floor of my TICC is:
1 sec 6.35 E-11
10 sec 6.33 E-12
100 sec 6.30 E-13
1k sec 6.64 E-15
best regards ,
Luciano
Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Cc
Data Sat, 11 Nov 2017 04:44:53 -0800
Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] Favorite counters (current production)?
Magus:
Also, as being reported by the friends at Norwegian NMI, there is
something funky about. They got to borrow one from Ole Petter Rønningen.
It was there in the York EFTF 2016 poster session, and I even made a few
folks aware of it as "interesting". If I had more time, it would be
interesting to dig deeper into that issue.
Way back in the time-nuts archives there are discussions now and then about some other low-level effects in these counters.
A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
I agree 100%. They get "too clever" for their own good and the internal design is not released. This is one reason why the TAPR TICC is so welcome. Totally open h/w and s/w. Ok, it doesn't quite compete with 20 ps full-featured high-end counters, but it's also 10x cheaper.
That said, I want to point out that the latest GPSDO / counter from Stanford Research continues their tradition of relatively open design. If you have an hour, go through the very detailed user manual, which includes theory of operation and BOM and schematics, just like the old days:
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Manuals/FS740m.pdf
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Catalog/FS740c.pdf
It's rather understated: they call it a "GPS time and frequency system" but it does frequency synthesis and pulse generation, frequency counting and time tagging, stats including ADEV, etc. You can see how they combined pieces of several other products all into this one modern instrument. Perhaps there's no need for them to ever refresh the SR620 now that the FS740 exists.
That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
HP and early Agilent days.
Right. That's also why I mentioned that if someday there's a Keysight B version of the 53230 I'm all in. Surely someone at Keysight is looking into this. They just need someone with a time nut mentality to clear up all the loose ends. Meanwhile the FS740 is on my Christmas list.
Scott:
What current production freq counters do people like for general
time-nuttery these days? There's a chance I can get a decent counter
for work, so I'm looking for suggestions. Bonus points for fanless.
Don't need anything past 200 MHz or so. Prefer ethernet over USB or GPIB.
The SR620 looks to be pretty big and a little dated. The 53230A seems
to have better specs and screen than the Tek/Fluke FCA3k series. Am I
missing any?
So, Scott, give the FS740 a try. See if SRS will loan you one for a few weeks and report back to us on what you think.
Thanks,
/tvb
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
On 11/11/2017 01:44 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
A trouble with some of these modern counters is that sometimes their
processing isn't as transparent as it used to be. The trouble with that
I agree 100%. They get "too clever" for their own good and the internal design is not released. This is one reason why the TAPR TICC is so welcome. Totally open h/w and s/w. Ok, it doesn't quite compete with 20 ps full-featured high-end counters, but it's also 10x cheaper.
This is a common problem to the researchers and the time-nuts.
We can hope that the vendors reading this take notice about these needs.
That said, I want to point out that the latest GPSDO / counter from Stanford Research continues their tradition of relatively open design. If you have an hour, go through the very detailed user manual, which includes theory of operation and BOM and schematics, just like the old days:
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Manuals/FS740m.pdf
http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/PDFs/Catalog/FS740c.pdf
It's rather understated: they call it a "GPS time and frequency system" but it does frequency synthesis and pulse generation, frequency counting and time tagging, stats including ADEV, etc. You can see how they combined pieces of several other products all into this one modern instrument. Perhaps there's no need for them to ever refresh the SR620 now that the FS740 exists.
Many thanks for this one, I did not know about this one, but look very
interesting.
That said, I hope Keysight can straight it out. I'm not out to bash
them, but I'm not as excited about their products as I was back in the
HP and early Agilent days.
Right. That's also why I mentioned that if someday there's a Keysight B version of the 53230 I'm all in. Surely someone at Keysight is looking into this. They just need someone with a time nut mentality to clear up all the loose ends. Meanwhile the FS740 is on my Christmas list.
Exactly my view. That we comment on it here, is since we learn and need
to track it. Hopefully they learn from this.
Vendors have become better at interacting again.
In the meanwhile, I hope Santa has a nice FS740 for me under the
christmas tree. Need to be nice now for a the rest of the year.
Cheers,
Magnus