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Discussion of precise voltage measurement

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AC voltage "standards".

JP
John Phillips
Thu, Apr 9, 2015 6:23 PM

Is there a better AC reference I can afford than
http://www.ballantinelabs.com/1395.htm    1395B-XX

--

John Phillips

Is there a better AC reference I can afford than http://www.ballantinelabs.com/1395.htm 1395B-XX -- *John Phillips*
CH
Chuck Harris
Thu, Apr 9, 2015 7:17 PM

Those are not references, but rather are AC thermal
transfer standards.

The way they work is you apply an unknown AC voltage
to it, and measure the DC voltage generated by
its thermocouple.  Then you remove the AC voltage,
and apply a DC voltage that gives the same thermocouple
voltage.  Usually, you apply the DC voltage with both
polarities, and average the two readings... which helps
to null out any thermocouple errors.

To successfully use an AC thermal transfer standard it
helps to have the controller instrument that goes along
with it.

Fluke makes as nice setup, as did HP.

At their best, they are twidgety, and quite sensitive to
ambient temperature variations, physical orientation,
air currents....  Apply too much voltage, and like the
light bulbs that they resemble, they go poof!

I don't think any metrologist has ever been truly happy
with the AC thermo transfer standard.

-Chuck Harris

John Phillips wrote:

Is there a better AC reference I can afford than
http://www.ballantinelabs.com/1395.htm    1395B-XX

Those are not references, but rather are AC thermal transfer standards. The way they work is you apply an unknown AC voltage to it, and measure the DC voltage generated by its thermocouple. Then you remove the AC voltage, and apply a DC voltage that gives the same thermocouple voltage. Usually, you apply the DC voltage with both polarities, and average the two readings... which helps to null out any thermocouple errors. To successfully use an AC thermal transfer standard it helps to have the controller instrument that goes along with it. Fluke makes as nice setup, as did HP. At their best, they are twidgety, and quite sensitive to ambient temperature variations, physical orientation, air currents.... Apply too much voltage, and like the light bulbs that they resemble, they go poof! I don't think any metrologist has ever been truly happy with the AC thermo transfer standard. -Chuck Harris John Phillips wrote: > Is there a better AC reference I can afford than > http://www.ballantinelabs.com/1395.htm 1395B-XX >
A
acbern@gmx.de
Thu, Apr 9, 2015 8:44 PM

these instruments are painfull to use, complex measurement procedures and pretty unstable (if you want to use their ppm resolution). I spend hours and hours calibrating a set. lots of data available from standards labs.
what I would recommend is a ballantine 1605A. easy to use, very precise, well priced, broad frequency range but needs to be calibrated of course as well. you could go from one single calibrated thermal converter (e.g. 10V) and with e.g. a nanovoltmeter (34420A)  you could do a full 1605 ladder calibration. poor man's 792...

Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. April 2015 um 21:17 Uhr
Von: "Chuck Harris" cfharris@erols.com
An: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" volt-nuts@febo.com
Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC voltage "standards".

Those are not references, but rather are AC thermal
transfer standards.

The way they work is you apply an unknown AC voltage
to it, and measure the DC voltage generated by
its thermocouple.  Then you remove the AC voltage,
and apply a DC voltage that gives the same thermocouple
voltage.  Usually, you apply the DC voltage with both
polarities, and average the two readings... which helps
to null out any thermocouple errors.

To successfully use an AC thermal transfer standard it
helps to have the controller instrument that goes along
with it.

Fluke makes as nice setup, as did HP.

At their best, they are twidgety, and quite sensitive to
ambient temperature variations, physical orientation,
air currents....  Apply too much voltage, and like the
light bulbs that they resemble, they go poof!

I don't think any metrologist has ever been truly happy
with the AC thermo transfer standard.

-Chuck Harris

these instruments are painfull to use, complex measurement procedures and pretty unstable (if you want to use their ppm resolution). I spend hours and hours calibrating a set. lots of data available from standards labs. what I would recommend is a ballantine 1605A. easy to use, very precise, well priced, broad frequency range but needs to be calibrated of course as well. you could go from one single calibrated thermal converter (e.g. 10V) and with e.g. a nanovoltmeter (34420A) you could do a full 1605 ladder calibration. poor man's 792... > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. April 2015 um 21:17 Uhr > Von: "Chuck Harris" <cfharris@erols.com> > An: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" <volt-nuts@febo.com> > Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC voltage "standards". > > Those are not references, but rather are AC thermal > transfer standards. > > The way they work is you apply an unknown AC voltage > to it, and measure the DC voltage generated by > its thermocouple. Then you remove the AC voltage, > and apply a DC voltage that gives the same thermocouple > voltage. Usually, you apply the DC voltage with both > polarities, and average the two readings... which helps > to null out any thermocouple errors. > > To successfully use an AC thermal transfer standard it > helps to have the controller instrument that goes along > with it. > > Fluke makes as nice setup, as did HP. > > At their best, they are twidgety, and quite sensitive to > ambient temperature variations, physical orientation, > air currents.... Apply too much voltage, and like the > light bulbs that they resemble, they go poof! > > I don't think any metrologist has ever been truly happy > with the AC thermo transfer standard. > > -Chuck Harris
TM
T Micallef
Fri, Apr 10, 2015 12:45 AM

acbern,

Which source(s) do you use to transfer the usable frequency range of the
thermal converters?

Todd

acbern, Which source(s) do you use to transfer the usable frequency range of the thermal converters? Todd
A
acbern@gmx.de
Fri, Apr 10, 2015 5:50 AM

the ac source I use is a datron 4808. dc is a fluke 5440. also, what you need is a switchover unit (dc to ac to -dc), so things go fast. the overall procedure is important to get good results. also watch out for signal path voltage drops, as the converter is low impedance. sensing helps.

Gesendet: Freitag, 10. April 2015 um 02:45 Uhr
Von: "T Micallef" tmicallef@gmail.com
An: volt-nuts@febo.com
Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC voltage

acbern,

Which source(s) do you use to transfer the usable frequency range of the
thermal converters?

Todd


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the ac source I use is a datron 4808. dc is a fluke 5440. also, what you need is a switchover unit (dc to ac to -dc), so things go fast. the overall procedure is important to get good results. also watch out for signal path voltage drops, as the converter is low impedance. sensing helps. > Gesendet: Freitag, 10. April 2015 um 02:45 Uhr > Von: "T Micallef" <tmicallef@gmail.com> > An: volt-nuts@febo.com > Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC voltage > > acbern, > > Which source(s) do you use to transfer the usable frequency range of the > thermal converters? > > Todd > > > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Fri, Apr 10, 2015 4:06 PM

In message <trinity-4d50cdde-b6e1-45bd-93df-aa35be5265ce-1428645021335@3capp-gm
x-bs18>, acbern@gmx.de writes:

the ac source I use is a datron 4808. dc is a fluke 5440.

The HP3336 is a bit of an overlooked for AC cal, it can deliver very
well defined amplitudes thanks to the built in thermal converter/comparator
leveling gadget.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

-------- In message <trinity-4d50cdde-b6e1-45bd-93df-aa35be5265ce-1428645021335@3capp-gm x-bs18>, acbern@gmx.de writes: >the ac source I use is a datron 4808. dc is a fluke 5440. The HP3336 is a bit of an overlooked for AC cal, it can deliver very well defined amplitudes thanks to the built in thermal converter/comparator leveling gadget. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.