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Tom Van Baak

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 7:31 PM

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V.

I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input.

Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2.

Thanks,
/tvb

[1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf
[2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html
[3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF
[4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf
[5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V. I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input. Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2. Thanks, /tvb [1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf [2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html [3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF [4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf [5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf

J

jimlux

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:03 PM

On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V.

I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input.

Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2.

What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a
differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for
a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor.

Plenty fast (GHz)

Thanks,
/tvb

[1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf
[2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html
[3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF
[4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf
[5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf

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On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V. > > I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input. > > Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2. What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor. Plenty fast (GHz) > > Thanks, > /tvb > > [1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf > [2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html > [3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF > [4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf > [5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

J

jimlux

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:06 PM

On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V.

I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input.

There are tons of LVDS that run on 3.3 or 5V, Maxim, TI both have parts.

The first Maxim part google turned up with "LVDS receiver" was a quad,
esd protected unit good to 400 MHz, 2ns prop delay, 50mV hysteresis.

You do want to watch the common mode voltages - some of the parts are
not good about having the signals swing near the rails (or beyond).

On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V. > > I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input. > There are tons of LVDS that run on 3.3 or 5V, Maxim, TI both have parts. The first Maxim part google turned up with "LVDS receiver" was a quad, esd protected unit good to 400 MHz, 2ns prop delay, 50mV hysteresis. You do want to watch the common mode voltages - some of the parts are not good about having the signals swing near the rails (or beyond).

DW

Dana Whitlow

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:22 PM

Tom,

I recently built such a device using a couple of stages of a 74HC04,
with the RF input to the 1st stage AC coupled and the input biased
by a high-value (a couple of megohms) resistor feeding back from
the output of the first inverter stage to the input of that stage. It's so
dirt simple, it's hard to beat.

I was not particularly concerned about jitter, so if you're not already
familiar enough with the circuit to know whether or not it's good
enough, it might be worth a try. BTW, I am running at 10 MHz from
a PRS-10 Rb, and just wanted something to drive a count-down
chain. And there's always the 74AC04 if you wanted faster edges.

Dana Whitlow

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It
performs very well but requires +10 V.

I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also
uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver
[2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two
parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for
a 10 MHz input.

Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would
work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be
quite as good as the TADD-2.

Thanks,
/tvb

[1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf
[2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html
[3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF
[4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf
[5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf

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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Tom, I recently built such a device using a couple of stages of a 74HC04, with the RF input to the 1st stage AC coupled and the input biased by a high-value (a couple of megohms) resistor feeding back from the output of the first inverter stage to the input of that stage. It's so dirt simple, it's hard to beat. I was not particularly concerned about jitter, so if you're not already familiar enough with the circuit to know whether or not it's good enough, it might be worth a try. BTW, I am running at 10 MHz from a PRS-10 Rb, and just wanted something to drive a count-down chain. And there's always the 74AC04 if you wanted faster edges. Dana Whitlow On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 1:31 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It > performs very well but requires +10 V. > > I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also > uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver > [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two > parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for > a 10 MHz input. > > Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would > work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be > quite as good as the TADD-2. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > [1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf > [2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html > [3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF > [4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf > [5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

PK

Poul-Henning Kamp

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:54 PM

In message 898171c2-0e9a-6a2a-dcfc-b7d893f8942f@earthlink.net, jimlux writes:

What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a
differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for
a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor.

I played with that, I used a small transformer to balance the signal
and then into LVDS receiver through a voltage divider. Worked well,
but I didn't measure the jitter, it was just for a micro-controller.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

-------- In message <898171c2-0e9a-6a2a-dcfc-b7d893f8942f@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes: >What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a >differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for >a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor. I played with that, I used a small transformer to balance the signal and then into LVDS receiver through a voltage divider. Worked well, but I didn't measure the jitter, it was just for a micro-controller. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

PK

Poul-Henning Kamp

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:55 PM

In message 63ae173b-93f4-ffe4-ddf1-655761665df6@earthlink.net, jimlux writes:

On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

You do want to watch the common mode voltages - some of the parts are
not good about having the signals swing near the rails (or beyond).

Also be aware that specs are for balanced input signals, if you tie
one of the inputs to a threshold voltage, published specs may not apply,
in particular speed.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

-------- In message <63ae173b-93f4-ffe4-ddf1-655761665df6@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes: >On 1/19/18 11:31 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >You do want to watch the common mode voltages - some of the parts are >not good about having the signals swing near the rails (or beyond). Also be aware that specs are for balanced input signals, if you tie one of the inputs to a threshold voltage, published specs may not apply, in particular speed. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

J

jimlux

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 9:36 PM

On 1/19/18 12:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message 898171c2-0e9a-6a2a-dcfc-b7d893f8942f@earthlink.net, jimlux writes:

What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a
differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for
a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor.

I played with that, I used a small transformer to balance the signal
and then into LVDS receiver through a voltage divider. Worked well,
but I didn't measure the jitter, it was just for a micro-controller.

You can also do it with capacitive dc block to one side, and some
resistors - the ap notes describe it. The receivers are a fairly high Z
input, so you pick the voltage divider resistors to make the termination
resistance right for the incoming signal.

On 1/19/18 12:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message <898171c2-0e9a-6a2a-dcfc-b7d893f8942f@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes: > >> What about the plethora of LVDS receivers - they're basically a >> differential input thresholder, with deliberate hysteresis, looking for >> a 300 mV shift across a 100 ohm resistor. > > I played with that, I used a small transformer to balance the signal > and then into LVDS receiver through a voltage divider. Worked well, > but I didn't measure the jitter, it was just for a micro-controller. > You can also do it with capacitive dc block to one side, and some resistors - the ap notes describe it. The receivers are a fairly high Z input, so you pick the voltage divider resistors to make the termination resistance right for the incoming signal.

V

Vlad

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 9:45 PM

On 2018-01-19 14:31, Tom Van Baak wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It
performs very well but requires +10 V.

I am using Wenzel approach without modification to drive it from +5V. I
didn't see any issues for my applications (usually it perform
sine-to-square conversion from OCXO to feed MCU clock).

--
WBW,

V.P.

On 2018-01-19 14:31, Tom Van Baak wrote: > John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It > performs very well but requires +10 V. I am using Wenzel approach without modification to drive it from +5V. I didn't see any issues for my applications (usually it perform sine-to-square conversion from OCXO to feed MCU clock). -- WBW, V.P.

G/

Graham / KE9H

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 9:49 PM

SN65LVDS34D

--- Graham / KE9H

==

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Vlad time@patoka.org wrote:

On 2018-01-19 14:31, Tom Van Baak wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It
performs very well but requires +10 V.

I am using Wenzel approach without modification to drive it from +5V. I
didn't see any issues for my applications (usually it perform
sine-to-square conversion from OCXO to feed MCU clock).

--
WBW,

V.P.

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ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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SN65LVDS34D --- Graham / KE9H == On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Vlad <time@patoka.org> wrote: > > > On 2018-01-19 14:31, Tom Van Baak wrote: > >> John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It >> performs very well but requires +10 V. >> > > > I am using Wenzel approach without modification to drive it from +5V. I > didn't see any issues for my applications (usually it perform > sine-to-square conversion from OCXO to feed MCU clock). > > > -- > WBW, > > V.P. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

BG

Bruce Griffiths

Fri, Jan 19, 2018 10:10 PM

Tom
What's the input signal amplitude?
What's the desired output signal (eg 5V CMOS, 3.3V CMOS etc)?
Bruce

On 20 January 2018 at 08:31 Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com wrote:

John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V.

I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input.

Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2.

Thanks,
/tvb

[1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf
[2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html
[3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF
[4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf
[5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf

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and follow the instructions there.

Tom What's the input signal amplitude? What's the desired output signal (eg 5V CMOS, 3.3V CMOS etc)? Bruce > On 20 January 2018 at 08:31 Tom Van Baak <tvb@LeapSecond.com> wrote: > > > John's TADD-2-mini [1] uses the Wenzel sine-to-square converter. It performs very well but requires +10 V. > > I'm looking for a solution that works at 5 V (e.g., USB powered) and also uses fewer parts. Wenzel also mentions using a differential line receiver [2]. That would be an ideal single-chip 5 V solution for me but the two parts he mentions, MC1489 [3] and SN55182 [4], don't appear fast enough for a 10 MHz input. > > Can any of you circuit experts suggest some line receivers that would work? Maybe DS9637 [5]? This isn't for cesium work so it doesn't have to be quite as good as the TADD-2. > > Thanks, > /tvb > > [1] http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf > [2] http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html > [3] https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1489-D.PDF > [4] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slls092d/slls092d.pdf > [5] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds9637a.pdf > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

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minimalist sine to square