HP-105B Battery Replacement?
APC has made UPS that take both internal and external batteries.
My house runs on a 2KW APC in bad times and they seem to run just fine.
Granted the battery is a drop bigger then we are speaking of here and I use
a separate 55 amp precision charger. Love that telco stuff.
But these are the serious commercial grade units that I find surplus or
free. They use 48 volt packs. I was aware of the traditional run times on
many smaller UPS units so stay clear of them.
Suspect we have strayed away from the basic question so will stop this sort
of comment.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Gary E. Miller gem@rellim.com wrote:
Yo Jeremy!
On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700
Jeremy Nichols jn6wfo@gmail.com wrote:
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So
far I don't see such a thing--do they exist?
Not in the store, but they are easy to make. I take consumer grade
CyberPower sine wave supplies. Remove the expensive and wimpy 12V9A
gells cells. Then I put two 6V deep cycle tractor batteries in a
battery box and cable them into the UPS with #6 wire from old jumper
cables. To make it nice and neat, I fuse it with inline 50Amp fuses and
50Amp DC connectors. Total cost about $200.
I've been doing that for almost two decades and have 6 running now.
I'll get two or three hours of backup from them. Two weeks ago I had a
45 minute power outage, my network never hiccuped. The batteries need
replacing about every five years.
APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with
any version of CyberPower.
Just be sure that everything you need to stay up is on a UPS, and that
they are well within their load rating.
I can post pictures if anyone wants.
RGDS
GARY
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
gem@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588
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Hi
They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
Bob
On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols jn6wfo@gmail.com wrote:
Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?
Jeremy
On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
Bob
On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@gmail.com
javascript:;> wrote:
Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
have experience?
A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
Jeremy
On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
A bigger question becomes:
Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
area. Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
is one obvious
answer.
The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
external to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
That way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
scattered about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
in an independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
in something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
conversion to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
24, or 48V and run with it.
My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
“don’t do it”. It makes
them a lot lighter weight !!!
Bob
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If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount UPS's for scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily solved.
On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
Bob
In my experience the commonly seen UPS's that support external batteries expect you to use the batteries supplied (or at least specified) by the manufacturer.
That being said I have come across UPS systems that are designed to work with generic user supplied 12 volt batteries but in my experience they are much less common. Some of them even have adjustments to provide different charging voltages for different types of batteries.
Sorry this is getting a bit off topic.
All the best
Mark S
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 15, 2016, at 4:06 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
Bob
On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols jn6wfo@gmail.com wrote:
Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?
Jeremy
On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
Bob
On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo@gmail.com
javascript:;> wrote:
Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
have experience?
A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
Jeremy
On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
A bigger question becomes:
Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
area. Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
is one obvious
answer.
The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
external to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
That way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
scattered about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
in an independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
in something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
conversion to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
24, or 48V and run with it.
My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
“don’t do it”. It makes
them a lot lighter weight !!!
Bob
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Check with the used equipment / property disposition department of the nearest big research university. The one near me often has big UPSs at relatively little prices.
Bob LaJeunesse
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:12 PM
From: "Andy ZL3AG" zl3ag@radioengineering.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?
If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount UPS's for scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily solved.
On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units. There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
Bob
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and follow the instructions there.
Thanks, everyone for the ideas and discussion. One sine wave inverter sold
by theinverterstore.com is a "
*AIMS 1200 Watt Inverter with Transfer SwitchPart # PWRIX120012S." *
It sounds more than adequate for my needs. I'm sure there are others and
I'll continue to shop.
Jeremy
On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Robert LaJeunesse lajeunesse@mail.com
wrote:
Check with the used equipment / property disposition department of the
nearest big research university. The one near me often has big UPSs at
relatively little prices.
Bob LaJeunesse
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:12 PM
From: "Andy ZL3AG" <zl3ag@radioengineering.com javascript:;>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?
If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount
UPS's for scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily
solved.
On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units.
There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from
roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com javascript:;
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Hi David:
The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas Ni-MH is Exothermic. This is why chargers for Ni-MH
have a mandatory temperature sensor. This is one of the reasons I say Ni-Cad cells batteries are easy to charge.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
NiMH batteries are close the same voltage and charge the same as NiCd and are more available and not toxic when
disposing of them. They should be a good replacement. Lithiums are very different in voltage and charging.
David N1HAC
On 9/14/16 10:19 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.
Jeremy
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net wrote:
Hi Alex:
Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.
-------- Original Message --------
Hi Brooke,
sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
have K-OH kalium hidrioxid [potassium hydroxide for anglophone ] as
electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi Jeremy:
It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this. I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
longer have a memory effect. They are also very easy to charge, so why not
just replace the old cells?
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High end standby UPSes support external batteries but most or all
online UPSes do. I have 3 different online UPS models and they all
support external batteries of either 48 or 60 volts.
On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700, you wrote:
Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?
Jeremy
It has been my experience that both chemistries have thermal cutouts for
overcharge limiting and both can use chargers that detect the negative
voltage slope when the cells heat up once they are fully charged, hence
the ability to use the same chargers for NiCd and NiMH. I have many
radios that started out with NiCd batteries and the newer replacements
are NiMH.
David
On 9/16/16 2:37 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi David:
The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas
Ni-MH is Exothermic. This is why chargers for Ni-MH have a mandatory
temperature sensor. This is one of the reasons I say Ni-Cad cells
batteries are easy to charge.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 11:37:23 -0700
Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net wrote:
The chemistries are very different. Ni-Cad is endothermic whereas Ni-MH is
Exothermic. This is why chargers for Ni-MH
have a mandatory temperature sensor. This is one of the reasons I say Ni-
Cad cells batteries are easy to charge.
Both NiCd and NiMH behave the same way chemically. Both reactions
are exotherm when the batteries are full, i.e. the electrical
energy you put into them cannot be "absorbed" chemically and thus
is dissipated through heat. (I'm not sure whether it's correct to
talk about exotherm/endotherm in this kind of setting, i'd appreciate
if someone with chemistry knowledge would correct me) The reason why
NiMH charger "need" a temeperature sensor is, because the classical
fast-charger for NiCd uses the negative dV/dt slope when the battery
gets full to detect end of charging, but the peak is much less
pronounced with NiMH than with NiCd (factor 2-5 IIRC). Hence people
were adviced to use only NiCd fast-chargers which had a temperature sensor.
Slow chargers (i.e. 0.1C chargers) do not have this problem, though
you shouldn't leave the battery on for days (NiMH is a quite bit more
sensitive when it comes to overcharging). "Modern" fast-chargers for
NiCd/NiMH chemistries have adjusted their dV/dt trip point to reliably
trigger with NiMH. Additionally all better chips (probably all chips, today?)
use pulse charging where the battery is measured during a short no-charge
period to more accurately measure the batteries condition.
NiMH is a good replacement for NiCd if you can live with the drawbacks.
Namely:
- slightly trickier charging (but that's the problem of the charger)
- more sensitive to over/under charging
- higher self-discharge
On the positive side, you get a greatly reduced memory effect (to the
point where a lot of people say it doesn't exist).
Attila Kinali
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.