From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) Anything not immediately absorbed by the GPS receiver is going to be reflected back up the coax, and could be reflected multiple times. ============================================= Only if the sending impedance of the LNA in the antenna is well off the nominal cable impedance, and in any case the reflection caused by mismatch at the GPS receiver input would be attenuated twice by the cable run. For timing applications I don't believe it's an issue, and for location applications buildings and shielding are a far greater problem. David GM8ARV -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk Twitter: @gm8arv

Ouch! Relay stepped attenuator? Or solid state components? On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 11:00 PM Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > There are packages you can put on a fairly standard HP signal generator > that will > do the mismatch stuff without spending all the money Sperient wants for > one of > their machines. One suggestion: If you *do* go with the HP solution, > running the > attenuator up and down to simulate fast fades (think urban canyon) will > fry the generator > in about 30 days … I have empirical data …. > > Bob > > > On Nov 21, 2016, at 8:53 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > I haven't used one personally but a spirent gps simulator would let you > do > > a try it and see. > > > > It will be interesting to see if out of the growing sdr community an open > > source gps simulator emerges. > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 1:01 PM Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) < > > drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> People state it is desirable to have a GPS antenna well clear of > >> obstructions, which I believe is to stop reflections. But there is > another > >> source of reflections which I suspect could be just as problematic. > >> > >> Whilst the input impedance of the antenna input terminal on a GPS > receiver > >> is probably marked 50 Ohms, I'd be somewhat surprised if it was very > close > >> to 50 Ohms. Antenna cables have an impedance, which is typically 50 +/- > 2 > >> Ohms, but this varies, not only between different makes/models of > cables, > >> but even on the same real of cable.The output of the pre-amp is most > >> unlikely to have a 50 Ohm source impedance. In fact, the output > impedance > >> might be close to 0 Ohms, as it may be driven by a voltage source, > without > >> any 50 Ohm resistor. > >> > >> Anything not immediately absorbed by the GPS receiver is going to be > >> reflected back up the coax, and could be reflected multiple times. > >> > >> I just looked on my HP 8720D VNA, and see I can reduce the output power > to > >> -70 dBm, which would should not do any damage. It will be interesting to > >> see just what the input impedance of the GPS receiver is. I'm tied up > with > >> doing my accounts over the next few days, but later I will look. > >> > >> If reflections on the antenna/cable/receiver are a problem, then > >> attenuators can improve the match, but of course they reduce the signal > >> level too. A more intelligent, but more difficult solution, is to build > a > >> matching network. For that one would need a VNA to measure the > impedance in > >> the first place. > >> > >> Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET > >> Kirkby Microwave Ltd > >> Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 > 6DT, > >> UK. > >> Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892. > >> http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > >> Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

Hi Relay based attenuator. Oddly enough I have data on more than one generator :) (ouch indeed if it’s not being paid for on somebody else’s credit card) Bob > On Nov 22, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ouch! Relay stepped attenuator? Or solid state components? > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 11:00 PM Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> There are packages you can put on a fairly standard HP signal generator >> that will >> do the mismatch stuff without spending all the money Sperient wants for >> one of >> their machines. One suggestion: If you *do* go with the HP solution, >> running the >> attenuator up and down to simulate fast fades (think urban canyon) will >> fry the generator >> in about 30 days … I have empirical data …. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Nov 21, 2016, at 8:53 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> I haven't used one personally but a spirent gps simulator would let you >> do >>> a try it and see. >>> >>> It will be interesting to see if out of the growing sdr community an open >>> source gps simulator emerges. >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 1:01 PM Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) < >>> drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> People state it is desirable to have a GPS antenna well clear of >>>> obstructions, which I believe is to stop reflections. But there is >> another >>>> source of reflections which I suspect could be just as problematic. >>>> >>>> Whilst the input impedance of the antenna input terminal on a GPS >> receiver >>>> is probably marked 50 Ohms, I'd be somewhat surprised if it was very >> close >>>> to 50 Ohms. Antenna cables have an impedance, which is typically 50 +/- >> 2 >>>> Ohms, but this varies, not only between different makes/models of >> cables, >>>> but even on the same real of cable.The output of the pre-amp is most >>>> unlikely to have a 50 Ohm source impedance. In fact, the output >> impedance >>>> might be close to 0 Ohms, as it may be driven by a voltage source, >> without >>>> any 50 Ohm resistor. >>>> >>>> Anything not immediately absorbed by the GPS receiver is going to be >>>> reflected back up the coax, and could be reflected multiple times. >>>> >>>> I just looked on my HP 8720D VNA, and see I can reduce the output power >> to >>>> -70 dBm, which would should not do any damage. It will be interesting to >>>> see just what the input impedance of the GPS receiver is. I'm tied up >> with >>>> doing my accounts over the next few days, but later I will look. >>>> >>>> If reflections on the antenna/cable/receiver are a problem, then >>>> attenuators can improve the match, but of course they reduce the signal >>>> level too. A more intelligent, but more difficult solution, is to build >> a >>>> matching network. For that one would need a VNA to measure the >> impedance in >>>> the first place. >>>> >>>> Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET >>>> Kirkby Microwave Ltd >>>> Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 >> 6DT, >>>> UK. >>>> Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892. >>>> http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ >>>> Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Hi, I agree. In general, you have one 50=>75 transmission loss, cable damping, one 75=>50 reflection, cable damping, a 75=>50 reflection, cable damping, 75=>50 transmission for the direct path of 50=>75 transmission, cable damping 75=>50 transmission. Thus, the reflection will be two cable damping and two 75=>50 reflections below the original signal. The reflection will be close, so it cares, but the amplitude will be so small that the shift is not significant. For the L1 C/A code-receivers the offset will be fairly drowned in the noise and offsets. Probably below 1 ns. So, for all practical matters for the type of receiver, no, no real impact. If you are into carrier phase and maybe dual or more bands, then it cares more because you have less noise and offsets. Cheers, Magnus On 11/21/2016 08:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Based on extensive testing of the line mismatch issue, the answer turns out to be “it does not matter”. > > The reflection issue ahead of the antenna is a reflection of the signal from a single satellite. The multipath > reflection makes that satellite appear to be further away than it really is. In the case that the reflected > signal is *stronger* than the desired signal, the multipath reflection “captures” the receiver and the net > solution is messed up. > > In the case of a mismatched cable, there is no “single satellite” issue. Everything is impacted by the mismatch. > Even if the mismatch is pretty bad, the “primary” wave is the one that will dominate at the receiver end. The > reflections will always be lower in amplitude. That effectively guarantees that you don’t have a multipath > issue from the coax. > > Yes, there is more to it than this simple explanation. The conclusion is still correct. There is no significant impact switching > coax from 50 ohms to 75 ohms and having both ends of the cable at an impedance that is not equal to the cable’s > characteristic impedance. > > Bob > >> On Nov 21, 2016, at 8:45 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: >> >> People state it is desirable to have a GPS antenna well clear of >> obstructions, which I believe is to stop reflections. But there is another >> source of reflections which I suspect could be just as problematic. >> >> Whilst the input impedance of the antenna input terminal on a GPS receiver >> is probably marked 50 Ohms, I'd be somewhat surprised if it was very close >> to 50 Ohms. Antenna cables have an impedance, which is typically 50 +/- 2 >> Ohms, but this varies, not only between different makes/models of cables, >> but even on the same real of cable.The output of the pre-amp is most >> unlikely to have a 50 Ohm source impedance. In fact, the output impedance >> might be close to 0 Ohms, as it may be driven by a voltage source, without >> any 50 Ohm resistor. >> >> Anything not immediately absorbed by the GPS receiver is going to be >> reflected back up the coax, and could be reflected multiple times. >> >> I just looked on my HP 8720D VNA, and see I can reduce the output power to >> -70 dBm, which would should not do any damage. It will be interesting to >> see just what the input impedance of the GPS receiver is. I'm tied up with >> doing my accounts over the next few days, but later I will look. >> >> If reflections on the antenna/cable/receiver are a problem, then >> attenuators can improve the match, but of course they reduce the signal >> level too. A more intelligent, but more difficult solution, is to build a >> matching network. For that one would need a VNA to measure the impedance in >> the first place. >> >> Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET >> Kirkby Microwave Ltd >> Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 6DT, >> UK. >> Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892. >> http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ >> Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please) >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >