Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?
richard@karlquist.com said:
Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and didn't
have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea.
What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS?
(Google gets lots of hits, but they all refer to motors.)
--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.
richard@karlquist.com said:
Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and
didn't
have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea.
What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS?
(Google gets lots of hits, but they all refer to motors.)
H-maser aging is typically compensated by something like
spectratime femto-stepper
http://www.spectratime.com/products/itest/clock-instruments/FemtoStepper/
microsemi AOG
http://www.microsemi.com/products/timing-synchronization-systems/time-frequency-references/active-hydrogen-maser/aog-110
(there are probably others, please post if you know about them!)
afaik they contain a OCXO/BVA that is steered based on a DMTD measurement
against the input reference.
AW
SpectraDynamics HROG 5/10
On 22. jul. 2016, at 09.49, Anders Wallin anders.e.e.wallin@gmail.com wrote:
richard@karlquist.com said:
Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and
didn't
have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea.
What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS?
(Google gets lots of hits, but they all refer to motors.)
H-maser aging is typically compensated by something like
spectratime femto-stepper
http://www.spectratime.com/products/itest/clock-instruments/FemtoStepper/
microsemi AOG
http://www.microsemi.com/products/timing-synchronization-systems/time-frequency-references/active-hydrogen-maser/aog-110
(there are probably others, please post if you know about them!)
afaik they contain a OCXO/BVA that is steered based on a DMTD measurement
against the input reference.
AW
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No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs as shown on p3 of the manual.A diophantine setup may be useful here if one wished to construct something similar.
Bruce
From: Anders Wallin <anders.e.e.wallin@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, 22 July 2016 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?
richard@karlquist.com said:
Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and
didn't
have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea.
What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS?
(Google gets lots of hits, but they all refer to motors.)
H-maser aging is typically compensated by something like
spectratime femto-stepper
http://www.spectratime.com/products/itest/clock-instruments/FemtoStepper/
microsemi AOG
http://www.microsemi.com/products/timing-synchronization-systems/time-frequency-references/active-hydrogen-maser/aog-110
(there are probably others, please post if you know about them!)
afaik they contain a OCXO/BVA that is steered based on a DMTD measurement
against the input reference.
AW
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs
as shown on p3 of the manual.
Ok. I tried to understand how this circuit works. While I can see
how a small and precise frequency offset can be produced, I do not
see how a small phase offset with fixed frequency can be produced.
At least not at the 100fs resolution level they are claiming in
the manual. Would someone be so kind and explain the working
of the circuit?
A diophantine setup may be useful here if one wished to construct something similar.
What is a diophantine setup?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
if you send the circuit to me Attila, I would try to help you
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
by the way aside of that ham license, I have some fifty years of
experience and also an MSEE....
On 7/28/2016 11:03 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs
as shown on p3 of the manual.
Ok. I tried to understand how this circuit works. While I can see
how a small and precise frequency offset can be produced, I do not
see how a small phase offset with fixed frequency can be produced.
At least not at the 100fs resolution level they are claiming in
the manual. Would someone be so kind and explain the working
of the circuit?
A diophantine setup may be useful here if one wished to construct something similar.
What is a diophantine setup?
Attila Kinali
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 14:06:09 -0700
Alex Pummer alex@pcscons.com wrote:
On 7/28/2016 11:03 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs
as shown on p3 of the manual.
Ok. I tried to understand how this circuit works. While I can see
how a small and precise frequency offset can be produced, I do not
see how a small phase offset with fixed frequency can be produced.
At least not at the 100fs resolution level they are claiming in
the manual. Would someone be so kind and explain the working
of the circuit?
if you send the circuit to me Attila, I would try to help you
Ah.. sorry. the link got cut off when i trimmed the mail.
It's the one on page three in the FemtoStepper manual:
http://www.spectratime.com/products/itest/clock-instruments/FemtoStepper/
Attila Kinali
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeeping Systems
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| Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeepi...Abstract Diophantine Frequency Synthesis (DFS), a number-theoretic approach to the design of very high resolution frequency synthesizers, was introduced in 2006. |
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| View on www.hindawi.com | Preview by Yahoo |
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Discusses a diophantine synthesiser.Note Sotiriadis' work on diophantine numbers and frequency synthesis appears to be a rehash of an old Patent perhaps due to a lack of competent searching for prior art.This issue was discussed on the list some time ago,
Bruce
On Friday, 29 July 2016 6:31 AM, Attila Kinali <attila@kinali.ch> wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs
as shown on p3 of the manual.
Ok. I tried to understand how this circuit works. While I can see
how a small and precise frequency offset can be produced, I do not
see how a small phase offset with fixed frequency can be produced.
At least not at the 100fs resolution level they are claiming in
the manual. Would someone be so kind and explain the working
of the circuit?
A diophantine setup may be useful here if one wished to construct something similar.
What is a diophantine setup?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 00:26:07 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeeping Systems
I quickly went over the papers people have pointed me at. Without
having gone through all the math, the idea for choosing the PLL values
looks neat. The 2-cascaded synthesizer is also the one used by Spectratime
for their FemtoStepper, which bring us back to the question: How do they
achieve phase steps? I see how offset frequencies are generated (with
arbitrary small step sized), but I do not see how this can be turned
in fine resulution phase steps when using PLL's as the controlling elements.
Discusses a diophantine synthesiser.Note Sotiriadis' work on diophantine
numbers and frequency synthesis appears to be a rehash of an old Patent
perhaps due to a lack of competent searching for prior art.This issue was
discussed on the list some time ago,
Which patent are you refering to?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
it is a way to use a carrier fc to make one SSB signal with fm
modulation frequency, use just the side-band, , which have a frequency
of fc + fm = fR, [fR/fc is a function of the SSB modulator carrier
suppression capability,] fm could be from less than 1/2 fc any
frequency to zero, if it is zero fR =f c. With fm is not zero, the phase
of fR will advance relative to fc as long as fm is not zero if fm
becomes zero the advance will stop.
The generation of a very small frequency offset will need fm = the
offset frequency
To "clean up" the resulting fR, a PLL could be locked to it, which could
look to one single frequency only [with very narrow tuning range
oscillator, perhaps a a tunable crystal and very narrow loop filter
[just to let pass fm ]
since oscillators are by definition amplifiers with infinite high gain
that PLL could look into fc!
Attila I don't know anything about any patent, but I developed that kind
of system for video colour performance analyzing system in the "past
century".
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 7/29/2016 9:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 00:26:07 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeeping Systems
I quickly went over the papers people have pointed me at. Without
having gone through all the math, the idea for choosing the PLL values
looks neat. The 2-cascaded synthesizer is also the one used by Spectratime
for their FemtoStepper, which bring us back to the question: How do they
achieve phase steps? I see how offset frequencies are generated (with
arbitrary small step sized), but I do not see how this can be turned
in fine resulution phase steps when using PLL's as the controlling elements.
Discusses a diophantine synthesiser.Note Sotiriadis' work on diophantine
numbers and frequency synthesis appears to be a rehash of an old Patent
perhaps due to a lack of competent searching for prior art.This issue was
discussed on the list some time ago,
Which patent are you refering to?
Attila Kinali