Phase Noise Modeling in SPICE
I have done a lot of phase noise modeling using LT SPICE over the years for PLL’s. It will not model the phase noise of the individual devices like VCO’s, dividers, phase detectors. You can input the phase noise profiles of the various devices and it will give the output phase noise of the loop using AC analysis. If you want to model the phase noise of a VCO at the transistor level, you need a harmonic balance program that supports VCO noise modeling. It is very difficult to module the phase noise of dividers, at the transistor level but it can be done. I did a presentation a few years ago at the European Microwave Conference on using CAE to model phase noise in PLL’s.
https://www.slideshare.net/edrucker1/european-microwave-pll-class
Eric Drucker
Agilent (Keysight) Technologies, Retired
Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today
Ulrich
In a message dated 10/22/2017 5:53:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, drucker@sonic.net writes:
I have done a lot of phase noise modeling using LT SPICE over the years for PLL’s. It will not model the phase noise of the individual devices like VCO’s, dividers, phase detectors. You can input the phase noise profiles of the various devices and it will give the output phase noise of the loop using AC analysis. If you want to model the phase noise of a VCO at the transistor level, you need a harmonic balance program that supports VCO noise modeling. It is very difficult to module the phase noise of dividers, at the transistor level but it can be done. I did a presentation a few years ago at the European Microwave Conference on using CAE to model phase noise in PLL’s.
https://www.slideshare.net/edrucker1/european-microwave-pll-class
Eric Drucker
Agilent (Keysight) Technologies, Retired
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Hi Eric,
On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 14:03:02 -0700
Eric Drucker drucker@sonic.net wrote:
I have done a lot of phase noise modeling using LT SPICE over the years for
PLL’s. It will not model the phase noise of the individual devices like
VCO’s, dividers, phase detectors. You can input the phase noise profiles of
the various devices and it will give the output phase noise of the loop using
AC analysis. If you want to model the phase noise of a VCO at the transistor
level, you need a harmonic balance program that supports VCO noise modeling.
It is very difficult to module the phase noise of dividers, at the transistor
level but it can be done. I did a presentation a few years ago at the
European Microwave Conference on using CAE to model phase noise in PLL’s.
https://www.slideshare.net/edrucker1/european-microwave-pll-class
Is your presentation available as pdf or ppt? (to store for future reference)
Also, do you have any recomendations what to read to learn how to do
such simulations properly?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
Hoi Ulrich,
On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:31:33 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While
I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS
is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed
you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today
Perfectly timed article! :-)
I did not have time to go through all the references yet, but I have a few
questions:
-
Is it possible to get
U. L. Rohde, A. M. Pavio and R. A. Pucel, “Accurate Noise Simulation of Microwave Amplifiers Using CAD,” Microwave Journal, Vol. 31, No. 12, December 1988, pp. 130-141.
somewhere? MWJ is pretty bad when it comes to accessing old issues. -
How do you come up with accurate noise models/parameters for the transistors?
As far as I can tell, the spice models provided by the manufacturers have
often only a very crude approximation of what the real noise parameters
look like (if any at all) and have to be corrected to match reality. -
What about the ADS approach do you not like?
-
What is your own software? And would it be possible to get access to it?
Side note: I do not fully understand how spice (or CAE software in general)
performs noise simulation, hence I do not trust it. So the simulations
I do are kind of syntetic that only take certain noise sources into account
which I deemed the ones dominating.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
With respect to your first question, I subscribe to MWJ and, after a
modest amount of looking on the web, find that the MWJ archives seem to
go back only as far as 2002. I was unable to locate a copy of the 1988
paper elsewhere on the web, which seems strange. Perhaps someone out
there has a paper copy and can scan it. I would also imagine that a
paper copy could be located in some university library.
But then, you have probably already been down those same paths.
DaveD
On 10/27/2017 1:01 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
Hoi Ulrich,
On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:31:33 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While
I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS
is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed
you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today
Perfectly timed article! :-)
I did not have time to go through all the references yet, but I have a few
questions:
-
Is it possible to get
U. L. Rohde, A. M. Pavio and R. A. Pucel, “Accurate Noise Simulation of Microwave Amplifiers Using CAD,” Microwave Journal, Vol. 31, No. 12, December 1988, pp. 130-141.
somewhere? MWJ is pretty bad when it comes to accessing old issues. -
How do you come up with accurate noise models/parameters for the transistors?
As far as I can tell, the spice models provided by the manufacturers have
often only a very crude approximation of what the real noise parameters
look like (if any at all) and have to be corrected to match reality. -
What about the ADS approach do you not like?
-
What is your own software? And would it be possible to get access to it?
Side note: I do not fully understand how spice (or CAE software in general)
performs noise simulation, hence I do not trust it. So the simulations
I do are kind of syntetic that only take certain noise sources into account
which I deemed the ones dominating.
Attila Kinali
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
yes, where to ?
In a message dated 10/27/2017 3:26:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, kc0wjn@gmail.com writes:
With respect to your first question, I subscribe to MWJ and, after a
modest amount of looking on the web, find that the MWJ archives seem to
go back only as far as 2002. I was unable to locate a copy of the 1988
paper elsewhere on the web, which seems strange. Perhaps someone out
there has a paper copy and can scan it. I would also imagine that a
paper copy could be located in some university library.
But then, you have probably already been down those same paths.
DaveD
On 10/27/2017 1:01 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
Hoi Ulrich,
On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:31:33 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While
I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS
is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed
you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today
Perfectly timed article! :-)
I did not have time to go through all the references yet, but I have a few
questions:
-
Is it possible to get
U. L. Rohde, A. M. Pavio and R. A. Pucel, “Accurate Noise Simulation of Microwave Amplifiers Using CAD,” Microwave Journal, Vol. 31, No. 12, December 1988, pp. 130-141.
somewhere? MWJ is pretty bad when it comes to accessing old issues. -
How do you come up with accurate noise models/parameters for the transistors?
As far as I can tell, the spice models provided by the manufacturers have
often only a very crude approximation of what the real noise parameters
look like (if any at all) and have to be corrected to match reality. -
What about the ADS approach do you not like?
-
What is your own software? And would it be possible to get access to it?
Side note: I do not fully understand how spice (or CAE software in general)
performs noise simulation, hence I do not trust it. So the simulations
I do are kind of syntetic that only take certain noise sources into account
which I deemed the ones dominating.
Attila Kinali
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Hoi Ulrich
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:46:20 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
yes, where to ?
Wie wäre es an meine Emailadresse (nimmt alles bis 20MB)?
Ich könnte es dann für den Rest der Mailingliste auf meinen
Webserver stellen.
Gruess
Attila Kinali
--
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
They don't alters their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering. -- The Doctor
See below .....
In a message dated 10/27/2017 3:02:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, attila@kinali.ch writes:
Hoi Ulrich,
On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:31:33 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
Eric has done a lot of excellent work, I know his presentations . While
I do no always agree with the ADS approach and use my own software the ADS
is a very good all-round CAD microwave CAD tool. More on the topic addressed
you will find under
http://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/29151-noise-analysis-then-and-today
Perfectly timed article! :-)
I did not have time to go through all the references yet, but I have a few
questions:
-
Is it possible to get
U. L. Rohde, A. M. Pavio and R. A. Pucel, “Accurate Noise Simulation of Microwave Amplifiers Using CAD,” Microwave Journal, Vol. 31, No. 12, December 1988, pp. 130-141.YES
somewhere? MWJ is pretty bad when it comes to accessing old issues. -
How do you come up with accurate noise models/parameters for the transistors?
As far as I can tell, the spice models provided by the manufacturers have
often only a very crude approximation of what the real noise parameters
look like (if any at all) and have to be corrected to match reality.See my math derivation in
The Design of Modern Microwave Oscillators for Wireless... - Google Scholar -
What about the ADS approach do you not like? Not enough information about the math used ... possible shortcuts to be fast
-
What is your own software? And would it be possible to get access to it?Ansoft Serenade Desktop Program
Side note: I do not fully understand how spice (or CAE software in general)
performs noise simulation, hence I do not trust it. So the simulations
I do are kind of syntetic that only take certain noise sources into account
which I deemed the ones dominating. It is typically an approximation
Attila Kinali
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
Will get it to you next week.
It was a fundamental paper, the ever first one ever to prove to be able evaluate the correct noise performance (against measured data) of such an amplifier. It included all distributed elements a correct FET noise model.
You can find a shorter version in :
Wiley: RF / Microwave Circuit Design for Wireless Applications, 2nd Edition - Ulrich L. Rohde, Matthias Rudolph
In a message dated 10/27/2017 4:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, attila@kinali.ch writes:
Hoi Ulrich
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:46:20 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
yes, where to ?
Wie wäre es an meine Emailadresse (nimmt alles bis 20MB)?
Ich könnte es dann für den Rest der Mailingliste auf meinen
Webserver stellen.
Gruess
Attila Kinali
--
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
They don't alters their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering. -- The Doctor
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:55:06 +0200
Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:46:20 -0400
Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
yes, where to ?
Wie wäre es an meine Emailadresse (nimmt alles bis 20MB)?
Ich könnte es dann für den Rest der Mailingliste auf meinen
Webserver stellen.
Ooops... that was intended for Ulrich directly.
Sorry for the noise.
Attila Kinali
--
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
They don't alters their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering. -- The Doctor