HP Z3801 RB fun
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice. Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
Paul,
Have you matched up the Rb EFC sensitivity to that of the 10811.
If not, you have most probably grossly changed the loop gain, and I
can't recall that the Z3801A was designed to have different loop-gains.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 12/28/2016 02:33 AM, paul swed wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice. Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s 10 bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4 days or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this. Unless it does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a 2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or better). For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any) improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice. Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity. It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall. But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C. But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s 10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4 days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this. Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like a fun
little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC sensitivity is
4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3], so EFC
sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity. It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall. But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C. But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s 10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4 days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this. Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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Hi
Ummm ….. errrrr ….
The 10811 that is used in the Z3801 has a larger electrical tuning range than the standard
10811 not a smaller one. It’s tuning range and the TBolt OCXO’s tuning range are
very similar.
Bob
On Dec 28, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like a fun little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC sensitivity is 4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3], so EFC sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity. It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall. But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C. But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s 10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4 days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this. Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Magnus and Bob.
I appreciate the comments and the suggestions are easily implemented.
Technical term "Piece-O-cake".
One other note the the Z3801 uses a more negative voltage to raise
frequency while the Piezo and FRS use a positive voltage.
Absolutely agree on the offset. Been trying to do that. However the FRS C
I am using wants seems to require +.6V to be on frequency. So because of
its age there may be a real issue. I have 3 others and may grab another to
see how it behaves. Also have some EGGs and FEI 5680s. Though those as I
recall are digital control.
But back to the basics first.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
Ummm ….. errrrr ….
The 10811 that is used in the Z3801 has a larger electrical tuning range
than the standard
10811 not a smaller one. It’s tuning range and the TBolt OCXO’s tuning
range are
very similar.
Bob
On Dec 28, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like a fun
little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC sensitivity is
4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3], so EFC
sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity.
It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall.
But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C.
But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb.
Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range,
tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s
10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that
wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4
days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this.
Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or
better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig
into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO
ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB.
Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this
choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just
like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset
and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll
is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency
drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another
non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to
become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift
assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Hi,
Well, that was the data I was able to find (and I referred to TvBs page
where I found it). If you have more accurate data, please share so we
can get the numbers right.
The Z3801A will do a least square estimate of frequency error and then
translate that into an initial DAC setting assuming it knows the EFC
sensitivity, and the loop will work out the rest from there (hopefully).
Getting EFC in the right neighborhood is probably wise for this reason.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 12/29/2016 12:32 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ummm ….. errrrr ….
The 10811 that is used in the Z3801 has a larger electrical tuning range than the standard
10811 not a smaller one. It’s tuning range and the TBolt OCXO’s tuning range are
very similar.
Bob
On Dec 28, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like a fun little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC sensitivity is 4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3], so EFC sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity. It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall. But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C. But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s 10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4 days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this. Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Been interesting.
Did increase the gain to 8 and remove the attenuation 10:1 needed for the
piezo ocxo. Not sure I would say the system locks but it certainly slows
the drift down to 10ns/30 minutes. I also added an offset after the
amplifier. This allowed the Z3801 EFC to set its range more towards 50%.
Though the FRS manual says the range is 0-5V for EFC the FRS is clearly
offset with age to the +1.7V for center. (The other FRS was +.6V)
Its interesting to see at the startup of the Z3801 the EFC range in the
RB. Nice steps down towards a fairly low angle line according to Lady
Heather.
Have had to stop the experimentation late today to give a hand to a fellow
on a HP 70-110GHz signal source. Till today I was a 10 GHz sort of guy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
Hi,
Well, that was the data I was able to find (and I referred to TvBs page
where I found it). If you have more accurate data, please share so we can
get the numbers right.
The Z3801A will do a least square estimate of frequency error and then
translate that into an initial DAC setting assuming it knows the EFC
sensitivity, and the loop will work out the rest from there (hopefully).
Getting EFC in the right neighborhood is probably wise for this reason.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 12/29/2016 12:32 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ummm ….. errrrr ….
The 10811 that is used in the Z3801 has a larger electrical tuning
range than the standard
10811 not a smaller one. It’s tuning range and the TBolt OCXO’s tuning
range are
very similar.
Bob
On Dec 28, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:
Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like a fun
little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC sensitivity is
4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3], so EFC
sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO 10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior and sensitivity.
It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller range as I recall.
But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the 10811 and FRS C.
But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be “correct” for the Rb.
Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish) trim range,
tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale by 1000:1. That’s
10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the math to handle that
wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it to run out to ~ 4
days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able to do this.
Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is 2x10^-12 (or
better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around somewhere, you could dig
into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the HP 10811 with a PIEZO
ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a pound. Why not an RB.
Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought went into this
choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency to EFC voltage just
like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple 1 opamp level ofset
and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to HPsatstat and LH. Its pll
is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a very slow frequency
drift
that with the offset I can make positive or negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to a TBolt and another
non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some things start to
become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some level of drift
assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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I think the numbers given for 10811 sensitivity was grossly incorrect
from the source I had, so it should be +/- 1E-6 for +/- 5V, thus giving
2E-6 over 10V thus giving a sensitivity of 2E-7/V. Compare to 4E-10/V
fro the FRS-C and just redo the work.
I thought the numbers where funny but too tired to do extensive digging,
but I just wanted to show the general idea.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 12/30/2016 04:05 AM, paul swed wrote:
Been interesting.
Did increase the gain to 8 and remove the attenuation 10:1 needed for
the piezo ocxo. Not sure I would say the system locks but it certainly
slows the drift down to 10ns/30 minutes. I also added an offset after
the amplifier. This allowed the Z3801 EFC to set its range more towards 50%.
Though the FRS manual says the range is 0-5V for EFC the FRS is clearly
offset with age to the +1.7V for center. (The other FRS was +.6V)
Its interesting to see at the startup of the Z3801 the EFC range in the
RB. Nice steps down towards a fairly low angle line according to Lady
Heather.
Have had to stop the experimentation late today to give a hand to a
fellow on a HP 70-110GHz signal source. Till today I was a 10 GHz sort
of guy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Magnus Danielson
<magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org mailto:magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
Hi,
Well, that was the data I was able to find (and I referred to TvBs
page where I found it). If you have more accurate data, please share
so we can get the numbers right.
The Z3801A will do a least square estimate of frequency error and then
translate that into an initial DAC setting assuming it knows the EFC
sensitivity, and the loop will work out the rest from there (hopefully).
Getting EFC in the right neighborhood is probably wise for this reason.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 12/29/2016 12:32 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ummm ….. errrrr ….
The 10811 that is used in the Z3801 has a *larger* electrical
tuning range than the standard
10811 not a smaller one. It’s tuning range and the TBolt OCXO’s
tuning range are
very similar.
Bob
On Dec 28, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Magnus Danielson
<magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
<mailto:magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org>> wrote:
Paul,
We just want to help you with that curiosity, it sounds like
a fun little project. :)
The FRS-C [1] has a range of +/- 1E-9 over 0-5V, so EFC
sensitivity is 4E-10/V.
The Z3801A has a range of 5.20E-10 [2] over -5V to +5V [3],
so EFC sensitivity is 5.2E-11/V.
So, it looks like you need to have a gain of 8 and raise the
EFC 2.5 V.
Cheers,
Magnus
[1] http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf
<http://www.to-way.com/tf/frs.pdf>
[2] http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/
<http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/>
[3] http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm
<http://www.realhamradio.com/joe-geller.htm>
On 12/28/2016 11:42 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus and Bob,
Thank you for your response. As far as the original HO
10811 oscillator
goes there is some well written details on it behavior
and sensitivity. It
was not the same as a standard 10811. A far smaller
range as I recall. But
the data is there.
Its funny on the RB I have the EFC range from the spec
sheet. It really
tunes from 0-5V. But I find it interesting that the best
alignment with
other references is sub 1V. Its an old FRS C and I have
others that may
present a more centered range.
I'll have to compare the detials that I have on the
10811 and FRS C. But I
actually pulled out a 100:1 antenuator I was using on
the Piezo crystal
that indeed does lock.
Goal in all of this is nothing special simply curiosity.
Thanks again. When I have some real numbers to share I will.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Bob Camp
<kb8tq@n1k.org <mailto:kb8tq@n1k.org>> wrote:
Hi
The loop gain (as Magnus mentions) needs to be
“correct” for the Rb. Since
the firmware was written for an OCXO with a PPM(ish)
trim range, tacking it
on to a PPB(ish) Rb will require everything to scale
by 1000:1. That’s 10
bits.
You may (or may not) have enough resolution in the
math to handle that wide
a range of gains.
If it really locks, the next challenge is to get it
to run out to ~ 4 days
or more on
the loop. Again, the firmware may or may not be able
to do this. Unless it
does,
the Rb really will not lock as well as it could.
With the Rb correctly locked, you still have the
issue that the Rb is a
2x10^-11
device (ADEV) at 1 second and the OCXO probably is
2x10^-12 (or better).
For
driving a counter with a normal gate, the Rb may not
show much (if any)
improvement.
There is the slight chance the ADEV will get the
firmware confused…..
Since the firmware source is running around
somewhere, you *could* dig into
all of this wonderful stuff :)
Bob
On Dec 27, 2016, at 8:33 PM, paul swed
<paulswedb@gmail.com
<mailto:paulswedb@gmail.com>> wrote:
OK so could not resist. The replacement of the
HP 10811 with a PIEZO ocxo
went very well. So in for a penny in for a
pound. Why not an RB. Having a
few around. Choice efratom FRS-c. Lot of thought
went into this choice.
Not
really it was there. It has a inverse frequency
to EFC voltage just like
the piezo and opposite the HP 10811.
Well it connects runs and locks using the simple
1 opamp level ofset and
and phase inverter.
But locked is a funny comment. According to
HPsatstat and LH. Its pll is
locked. But both scope and the LH graph shows a
very slow frequency drift
that with the offset I can make positive or
negative. A cycle at 10 ns
takes quite some time about an hour compared to
a TBolt and another non
modified Z3801. At this level of resolution some
things start to become
questionable.
I almost wonder if the modified z3801 under some
level of drift assumes
everything is locked and fine. Can it be pushed
beyond expectations. I
suspect it can.
Anyhow as I say a bit of GPSDO fun.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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