Hi Like it or not, these days the volume purchases of IC’s are made in China. Volume buys have *always* been lower cost than normal distribution pricing. A > 10:1 ratio is not at all out of the question. If I bought 10,000,000 of a chip each month, I’d expect (and probably get) a very good deal on that chip. I probably have a number of friends who would love to get chips at (or near) the 10M / mo price. Welcome to “Lets Make a Deal”. You now have parts leaking into a grey market. No certs, no ability to trace them back (I don’t want to get in trouble for “sharing”). That’s the “bright side” of gray market parts. The “dark side” is that a *lot* of chips are fabricated and / or packaged in China by independent outfits. A wafer or ten goes astray, it gets packaged and off the result goes to the grey market. No testing, no QA, no trace back. Darker still are pulls or clones. Its always a gamble …. Bobn > On Oct 10, 2016, at 1:28 PM, Alexander Pummer <alexpcs@ieee.org> wrote: > > Once upon the time I designed some power-supplies, used parts from a sound name US company, they asked for $12.-- each --it was long time ego -- the equipment supposed to built in Asia, the manager -- I was one outside consultant -- told me that we can not use that expensive parts, my Chinese colleague told, that I should not worry that part will not cost more than a dollar, at the end we got the parts for 57 cents in Hong Kong, the manager was on the opinion that the cheap parts are counterfeit, therefore we opened one expensive original and one cheap one; the silicon was identical, as the performance too....was it a perfect copy, or one original?, who cares it worked like the original, but much cheaper. > > 73 > KL6UHN > Alex > > On 10/10/2016 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: >> On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Poul-Henning wrote: >>> >>> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better". >>> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment >>> during the parts removal process. >> >> I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic >> kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all scratching >> each other. The bag was not anti-static. >> >> There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made so >> cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards. >> >> * The chips are counterfeit >> * The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been >> relabeled. >> * They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've heard >> described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but are >> the same devices. >> * They are recycled. >> * They are stolen. >> >> It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from eBay. >> Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not. >> >> You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from a >> reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that >> the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get caught, >> but they are more likely to be ok. >> >> I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung >> Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with >> this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit. I thought I'd be >> safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading reviews >> on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries either, >> so I did not buy from Amazon. >> >> Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now works >> ok. I don't know if Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but I >> think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from >> anywhere else. >> >> I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell, >> but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay >> and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now I >> will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable. >> >> Dave. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13182 - Release Date: 10/10/16 > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

There is another way to those possible Dave Kirby quotes.....remember silicon foundry lines run lots of wafers through the fab line at one time these are tested automatically and inked at the end of the process and put inro store. The wafer are drawn and cut and encapsulated (sometime halfway round the world from the fab line) when required. It being possible that high yeilding wafers are drawn first. It is possible low yeilding wafers my be returned to the silicon refiner to use as material for a new batch of rods (boule). These may be intercepted or bought by a small company for whom it is worthwhile to bond up chip from low yield wafers. On the other hand they could wash off the ink (testfail marker) and bond up the lot making money out of known duds that look genuine if opened (difficult with plastic encapsulation, without damaging the chip metallisation) I have bought old 3inch wafer in the past on eBay to use as lecture samples. They had a genuine looking device on them but no id. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Pummer" <alexpcs@ieee.org> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix USB-GPIB Controller > Once upon the time I designed some power-supplies, used parts from a sound > name US company, they asked for $12.-- each --it was long time ego -- the > equipment supposed to built in Asia, the manager -- I was one outside > consultant -- told me that we can not use that expensive parts, my Chinese > colleague told, that I should not worry that part will not cost more than > a dollar, at the end we got the parts for 57 cents in Hong Kong, the > manager was on the opinion that the cheap parts are counterfeit, therefore > we opened one expensive original and one cheap one; the silicon was > identical, as the performance too....was it a perfect copy, or one > original?, who cares it worked like the original, but much cheaper. > > 73 > KL6UHN > Alex > > On 10/10/2016 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote: >> On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Poul-Henning wrote: >>> >>> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better". >>> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment >>> during the parts removal process. >> >> I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic >> kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all >> scratching >> each other. The bag was not anti-static. >> >> There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made >> so >> cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards. >> >> * The chips are counterfeit >> * The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been >> relabeled. >> * They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've >> heard >> described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but >> are >> the same devices. >> * They are recycled. >> * They are stolen. >> >> It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from >> eBay. >> Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not. >> >> You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced from >> a >> reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say that >> the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get >> caught, >> but they are more likely to be ok. >> >> I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung >> Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues with >> this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit. I thought I'd be >> safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading >> reviews >> on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries >> either, >> so I did not buy from Amazon. >> >> Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now >> works >> ok. I don't know if Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, but >> I >> think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than from >> anywhere else. >> >> I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame Duracell, >> but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on eBay >> and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but now >> I >> will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable. >> >> Dave. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13182 - Release Date: >> 10/10/16 > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

I buy a lot of stuff from eBay and Amazon, including batteries on occasion. Invariably, there has been a pretty good correlation between price and quality, but considerably more so with batteries. It really sucks paying $100 or more for a quality OEM laptop battery, but the alternative is to throw away $40 and getting junk that at best will not be very useful and at worse will burn your house. Batteries are a tough business, ask Samsung... Didier KO4BB On October 10, 2016 1:13:45 PM EDT, "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)" <drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: >On 10 October 2016 at 09:35, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz@yandex.com> >wrote: > >> Poul-Henning wrote: >> >> And for voltage references, "pre-owned" is likely to mean "better". >>> >> >> Perhaps, but third-world recyclers are not known for gentle treatment >> during the parts removal process. > > >I had some cheap ($10) GPS receiver boards shipped to me in a plastic >kitchen bag from yikunhk on eBay. 4 boards in the same bag, all >scratching >each other. The bag was not anti-static. > >There are all number of possible explanations of why boards can be made >so >cheaply, when the ICs appear to cost more than the boards. > >* The chips are counterfeit >* The chips are similar to what they are supposed to be, but have been >relabeled. >* They are made at the same factory as the real devices, on what I've >heard >described as the "ghost shift", where they are not officially made, but >are >the same devices. >* They are recycled. >* They are stolen. > >It is anyone's guess once you start buying semiconductor devices from >eBay. >Maybe you are lucky, maybe you are not. > >You dramatically increase the probability a part is good if sourced >from a >reputable source (e.g. RS or Farnell in the UK). That is not to say >that >the parts are not counterfeits, as even the best suppliers can get >caught, >but they are more likely to be ok. > >I recently bought a supposedly original Samsung battery for my Samsung >Galazy S3 phone from a local shop. The phone had all sorts of issues >with >this battery, so I concluded it was a poor counterfeit. I thought I'd >be >safe buying directory from Amazon (not a 3rd party), but on reading >reviews >on Amazon, I was not convinced those were genuine Samsung batteries >either, >so I did not buy from Amazon. > >Eventually I bought a battery from the Samsung website. The phone now >works >ok. I don't know if Samsung actually make the batteries themselves, >but I >think I have a better chance of buying from the Samsung website than >from >anywhere else. > >I've had "Duracell" batteries leak. At one time I used to blame >Duracell, >but now it has cross my mind whether they might have been bought on >eBay >and were counterfeits. I can't recall where they were purchased, but >now I >will only purchase batteries from sources I consider reputable. > >Dave. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Moto-X wireless tracker while I do other things.