RM

Richard Mogford

Tue, Dec 31, 2019 2:35 AM

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros?

Richard

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? Richard

BB

Bob Bownes

Tue, Dec 31, 2019 2:55 AM

Localhost is yourself. Typically the IP address of 127.0.0.1

You could use LH to update the time on the machine she is running on.

Bob

On Dec 30, 2019, at 21:52, Richard Mogford rchrdm@earthlink.net wrote:

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros?

Richard

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Localhost is yourself. Typically the IP address of 127.0.0.1 You could use LH to update the time on the machine she is running on. Bob > On Dec 30, 2019, at 21:52, Richard Mogford <rchrdm@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. > > I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. > > Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. > > There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. > > Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? > > I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? > > Richard > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

EN

Eamonn Nugent

Tue, Dec 31, 2019 2:58 AM

Hiya!

My first contribution to the list, maybe I can be useful in my software dev ways.

Localhost is your computer. On all computers, the name “localhost” is used as the name to “loop back” (it’s actually called the loop-back address) to the same computer. So, when you query localhost, you’re querying yourself. As to the application that serves that data, it is likely either Windows time service, ntpd on Linux, or Faros itself.

38ms or latency is fairly typical for over-the-Internet routing. A rough way of telling the latency between two locations is to take the distance, divide it by the speed of light, and then multiply it by two because of all the hardware in between that switches the signals.

Hope this helped, feel free to email back if you have any more questions or I can answer further!

Thanks,
Eamonn

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:52 PM, Richard Mogford rchrdm@earthlink.net wrote:

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros?

Richard

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hiya! My first contribution to the list, maybe I can be useful in my software dev ways. Localhost is your computer. On all computers, the name “localhost” is used as the name to “loop back” (it’s actually called the loop-back address) to the same computer. So, when you query localhost, you’re querying yourself. As to the application that serves that data, it is likely either Windows time service, ntpd on Linux, or Faros itself. 38ms or latency is fairly typical for over-the-Internet routing. A rough way of telling the latency between two locations is to take the distance, divide it by the speed of light, and then multiply it by two because of all the hardware in between that switches the signals. Hope this helped, feel free to email back if you have any more questions or I can answer further! Thanks, Eamonn Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:52 PM, Richard Mogford <rchrdm@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. > > I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. > > Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. > > There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. > > Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? > > I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? > > Richard > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

DJ

David J Taylor

Tue, Dec 31, 2019 9:33 AM

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a
radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the
world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the
radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I
guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the
PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a
test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one
that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other
servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends
data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in
Faros?

Richard

---====

Richard,

As others have mentioned, "localhost" is your own PC, but that does need to
get its time from somewhere.

In your situation I would strongly recommend installing NTP on your PC. The
reference version of NTP (free) has many advantages over the various,
so-called "atomic clock" programs. I have some notes on installing NTP on
Windows:

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html

That will get you into millisecond level accuracy, but if you need better
you could use the PPS (pulse per second) stream - if your GPS provides
that - to get into sub-millisecond.

If you want a Winter project, build a Raspberry Pi based NTP server with a
GPS/PPS source, and you're into having a tens of microseconds accuracy local
server:

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-quickstart.html

Cheers,
David

SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? Richard ===================================== Richard, As others have mentioned, "localhost" is your own PC, but that does need to get its time from somewhere. In your situation I would strongly recommend installing NTP on your PC. The reference version of NTP (free) has many advantages over the various, so-called "atomic clock" programs. I have some notes on installing NTP on Windows: https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html That will get you into millisecond level accuracy, but if you need better you could use the PPS (pulse per second) stream - if your GPS provides that - to get into sub-millisecond. If you want a Winter project, build a Raspberry Pi based NTP server with a GPS/PPS source, and you're into having a tens of microseconds accuracy local server: https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-quickstart.html Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software for you Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk Twitter: @gm8arv

BK

Bob kb8tq

Tue, Dec 31, 2019 2:10 PM

Hi

Ok, so now we have the question of “what’s good enough?”. Is 10’s of ms adequate to
get the job done? Would 100’s of us make a noticeable impact on performance? If so
a local GPS based time source could provide that level of improvement. Cost wise the
impact is not massive. Indeed this is diving even deeper into Time Nuttery …..

Bob

On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:35 PM, Richard Mogford rchrdm@earthlink.net wrote:

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros?

Richard

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Ok, so now we have the question of “what’s good enough?”. Is 10’s of ms adequate to get the job done? Would 100’s of us make a noticeable impact on performance? If so a local GPS based time source could provide that level of improvement. Cost wise the impact is not massive. Indeed this is diving even deeper into Time Nuttery ….. Bob > On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:35 PM, Richard Mogford <rchrdm@earthlink.net> wrote: > > I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. > > I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. > > Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. > > There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. > > Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? > > I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? > > Richard > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

KR

Kevin Rowett

Wed, Jan 1, 2020 4:12 AM

Richard,

Faros uses a precise time of day to determine the time it took for the beacon signal to reach your location. It uses this info to determine if the path was the short path, or the long path.

The NCDXF beacons use a GPS receiver to determine a very accurate time of day, and to start their transmission at a precise time. Faros looks at the clock time when it hears the signal arriving at the receiver it’s listening with. It knows the exact location of the transmitter and your exact location. Form there, it can calculate the spherical distance, both the “short path” and the “long path”. With the distance known, and the delay in receiving the signal, Faros can then determine if the signal arrived at your location via the short path, or the long path (or both!).

Faros gets the correct time of day, by using it’s own built in NTP. It has a list of NTP servers, and it uses the NTP algorithm to determine the “delay” to that server. Faros ranks the quality of the NTP servers by delay.

An interesting experiment is to tell Faros a location that’s much different than where it’s receive really is located.

KR

On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:55 PM, Bob Bownes bownes@gmail.com wrote:

Localhost is yourself. Typically the IP address of 127.0.0.1

You could use LH to update the time on the machine she is running on.

Bob

On Dec 30, 2019, at 21:52, Richard Mogford rchrdm@earthlink.net wrote:

I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions.

I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area.

Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros.

There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more.

Can someone tell me what “localhost” is?

I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros?

Richard

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Richard, Faros uses a precise time of day to determine the time it took for the beacon signal to reach your location. It uses this info to determine if the path was the short path, or the long path. The NCDXF beacons use a GPS receiver to determine a very accurate time of day, and to start their transmission at a precise time. Faros looks at the clock time when it hears the signal arriving at the receiver it’s listening with. It knows the exact location of the transmitter and your exact location. Form there, it can calculate the spherical distance, both the “short path” and the “long path”. With the distance known, and the delay in receiving the signal, Faros can then determine if the signal arrived at your location via the short path, or the long path (or both!). Faros gets the correct time of day, by using it’s own built in NTP. It has a list of NTP servers, and it uses the NTP algorithm to determine the “delay” to that server. Faros ranks the quality of the NTP servers by delay. An interesting experiment is to tell Faros a location that’s much different than where it’s receive really is located. KR > On Dec 30, 2019, at 6:55 PM, Bob Bownes <bownes@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Localhost is yourself. Typically the IP address of 127.0.0.1 > > You could use LH to update the time on the machine she is running on. > > Bob > >> On Dec 30, 2019, at 21:52, Richard Mogford <rchrdm@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> I have not been on this list since 2016 and have some new time questions. >> >> I am using a program called “Faros.” It is for ham radio. It controls a radio receiver and automatically checks 18 transmitting beacons around the world. It displays the signal strength of each beacon. This gives the radio operator some idea of whether they could contact someone in that area. >> >> Faros depends on an accurate time source that has consistent delays. I guess “delay” here means the time it takes for the time signal to get to the PC and Faros. >> >> There is an editable list of time servers in the software. There is also a test function that checks time source availability and delay. The only one that has very low delays (e.g., 1 ms) is called “localhost.” All the other servers have larger delays, such as 38 ms or more. >> >> Can someone tell me what “localhost” is? >> >> I have a simple GPS receiver (from Adafruit) connected to the PC that sends data to Lady Heather. Is there a way I can use the data from the GPS in Faros? >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

DJ

David J Taylor

Wed, Jan 1, 2020 10:09 AM

Richard,

Faros uses a precise time of day to determine the time it took for the
beacon signal to reach your location. It uses this info to determine if the
path was the short path, or the long path.

The NCDXF beacons use a GPS receiver to determine a very accurate time of
day, and to start their transmission at a precise time. Faros looks at the
clock time when it hears the signal arriving at the receiver it’s listening
with. It knows the exact location of the transmitter and your exact
location. Form there, it can calculate the spherical distance, both the
“short path” and the “long path”. With the distance known, and the delay in
receiving the signal, Faros can then determine if the signal arrived at your
location via the short path, or the long path (or both!).

Faros gets the correct time of day, by using it’s own built in NTP. It has
a list of NTP servers, and it uses the NTP algorithm to determine the
“delay” to that server. Faros ranks the quality of the NTP servers by
delay.

An interesting experiment is to tell Faros a location that’s much different
than where it’s receive really is located.

KR

Kevin,

From that I would expect the receiver & PC to have a good sub-millisecond

accuracy, and the best way to achieve that would be to run the whole lot on
Linux, to be honest! Given that it's Windows software:

ensure you're running Windows-10 as it has more precise time functions.
ask the developer to check for and use the
"GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime" function to take advantage of the
increased precision.
use a GPS with a PPS feed and ideally a PC with a real COM port, or at
least a 3rd-party COM port. NOT a COM port over USB!
install the reference version of NTP (which includes PPS support for
Windows). It does a lot more than a simple NTP client will do. I have some
notes to help configure here:

https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Sure-GPS.htm

That's using a board which is no longer available, but a cheap Chinese GPS
board with PPS output will suffice, possible needing a TTL to RS-232 level
converter. Search that page for "loopback-ppsapi-provider.dll" as the
original method of replacing the serial port driver no longer works under
the current Windows-10.

leave the PC 24x7 on at as near constant temperature you can get.

Have fun!

Cheers,
David

SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv

Richard, Faros uses a precise time of day to determine the time it took for the beacon signal to reach your location. It uses this info to determine if the path was the short path, or the long path. The NCDXF beacons use a GPS receiver to determine a very accurate time of day, and to start their transmission at a precise time. Faros looks at the clock time when it hears the signal arriving at the receiver it’s listening with. It knows the exact location of the transmitter and your exact location. Form there, it can calculate the spherical distance, both the “short path” and the “long path”. With the distance known, and the delay in receiving the signal, Faros can then determine if the signal arrived at your location via the short path, or the long path (or both!). Faros gets the correct time of day, by using it’s own built in NTP. It has a list of NTP servers, and it uses the NTP algorithm to determine the “delay” to that server. Faros ranks the quality of the NTP servers by delay. An interesting experiment is to tell Faros a location that’s much different than where it’s receive really is located. KR ================================ Kevin, >From that I would expect the receiver & PC to have a good sub-millisecond accuracy, and the best way to achieve that would be to run the whole lot on Linux, to be honest! Given that it's Windows software: - ensure you're running Windows-10 as it has more precise time functions. - ask the developer to check for and use the "GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime" function to take advantage of the increased precision. - use a GPS with a PPS feed and ideally a PC with a real COM port, or at least a 3rd-party COM port. NOT a COM port over USB! - install the reference version of NTP (which includes PPS support for Windows). It does a lot more than a simple NTP client will do. I have some notes to help configure here: https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Sure-GPS.htm That's using a board which is no longer available, but a cheap Chinese GPS board with PPS output will suffice, possible needing a TTL to RS-232 level converter. Search that page for "loopback-ppsapi-provider.dll" as the original method of replacing the serial port driver no longer works under the current Windows-10. - leave the PC 24x7 on at as near constant temperature you can get. Have fun! Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software for you Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk Twitter: @gm8arv

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

PC Time Servers

Cheers, David

KR

Cheers, David

Cheers,
David

Cheers,
David