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TCXO drift - related to TVB's posting

JG
Joseph Gray
Sat, Nov 12, 2016 11:25 PM

TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs.

I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20
years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM,
Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and
mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy,
most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various
model radios drift downward in frequency over time.

One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused
for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year
ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they
were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop
recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an
unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do
with how long they sat on the shelf.

I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if
this downward trend will hold true for them.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates.

I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to recent questions. Here are three plots.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif )

A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of them show drift.

For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift.

But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two things to do. Zoom in and zoom out.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif )

Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day.

For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable.

The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift rate based on just one day of data.

The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift rate can change significantly from day to day to day.

The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent behavior.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif )

Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore for now.

At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data.

In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log discussion.

So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob ;-)

/tvb


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TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs. I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20 years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM, Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy, most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various model radios drift downward in frequency over time. One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do with how long they sat on the shelf. I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if this downward trend will hold true for them. Joe Gray W5JG On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates. > > I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to recent questions. Here are three plots. > > > 1) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ) > > A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of them show drift. > > For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift. > > But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two things to do. Zoom in and zoom out. > > > 2) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ) > > Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day. > > For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable. > > The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift rate based on just one day of data. > > The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift rate can change significantly from day to day to day. > > The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent behavior. > > > 3) attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ) > > Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore for now. > > At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data. > > In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log discussion. > > So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob ;-) > > /tvb > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Sun, Nov 13, 2016 12:26 AM

Hi

In general the crystal in an OCXO should drift positive. The reason often
mentioned is fairly simple:

You can only get the blank + base plate + calibration just so clean. You can go
crazy getting the enclosure clean. The result is a long term mass transfer from
the blank  (it’s “dirty”, looses mass, frequency goes up) to the enclosure.

Are there a whole lot of other things that may be happening? Of course. The
telling point is still that negative aging is a bit unusual on a well made
crystal. As Rick pointed out a few decades ago, OCXO performance may or
may not be limited by the crystal ….

Bob

On Nov 12, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Joseph Gray jgray@zianet.com wrote:

TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs.

I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20
years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM,
Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and
mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy,
most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various
model radios drift downward in frequency over time.

One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused
for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year
ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they
were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop
recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an
unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do
with how long they sat on the shelf.

I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if
this downward trend will hold true for them.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates.

I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to recent questions. Here are three plots.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif )

A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of them show drift.

For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift.

But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two things to do. Zoom in and zoom out.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif )

Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day.

For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable.

The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift rate based on just one day of data.

The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift rate can change significantly from day to day to day.

The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent behavior.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif )

Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore for now.

At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data.

In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log discussion.

So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob ;-)

/tvb


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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi In *general* the crystal in an OCXO should drift positive. The reason often mentioned is fairly simple: You can only get the blank + base plate + calibration just so clean. You can go crazy getting the enclosure clean. The result is a long term mass transfer from the blank (it’s “dirty”, looses mass, frequency goes up) to the enclosure. Are there a whole lot of other things that may be happening? Of course. The telling point is still that negative aging is a bit unusual on a well made crystal. As Rick pointed out a few decades ago, OCXO performance may or may not be limited by the crystal …. Bob > On Nov 12, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Joseph Gray <jgray@zianet.com> wrote: > > TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs. > > I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20 > years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM, > Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and > mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy, > most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various > model radios drift downward in frequency over time. > > One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused > for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year > ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they > were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop > recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an > unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do > with how long they sat on the shelf. > > I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if > this downward trend will hold true for them. > > Joe Gray > W5JG > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: >> There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates. >> >> I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to recent questions. Here are three plots. >> >> >> 1) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ) >> >> A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of them show drift. >> >> For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift. >> >> But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two things to do. Zoom in and zoom out. >> >> >> 2) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ) >> >> Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day. >> >> For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable. >> >> The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift rate based on just one day of data. >> >> The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift rate can change significantly from day to day to day. >> >> The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent behavior. >> >> >> 3) attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ) >> >> Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore for now. >> >> At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data. >> >> In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log discussion. >> >> So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob ;-) >> >> /tvb >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.
AG
Adrian Godwin
Sun, Nov 13, 2016 12:43 AM

What if your shop reference were drifting up ?

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Joseph Gray jgray@zianet.com wrote:

TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs.

I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20
years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM,
Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and
mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy,
most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various
model radios drift downward in frequency over time.

One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused
for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year
ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they
were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop
recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an
unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do
with how long they sat on the shelf.

I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if
this downward trend will hold true for them.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com wrote:

There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates.

I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it

provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to
recent questions. Here are three plots.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif (

A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each

frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The
X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What
you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of
them show drift.

For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days

for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well
under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of
drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this
scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift.

But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two

things to do. Zoom in and zoom out.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif (

Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The

X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at
this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At
this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the
one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day.
This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero
drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day.

For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are

large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable.

The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift

rate based on just one day of data.

The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at

any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift
rate can change significantly from day to day to day.

The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In

a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very
careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent
behavior.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif (

Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the

Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary
thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore
for now.

At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift.

Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but
the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common
scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first
few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data.

In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks

linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear
but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic
curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter
time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external
stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log
discussion.

So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob

;-)

/tvb


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/

mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

What if your shop reference were drifting up ? On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Joseph Gray <jgray@zianet.com> wrote: > TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs. > > I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20 > years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM, > Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and > mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy, > most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various > model radios drift downward in frequency over time. > > One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused > for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year > ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they > were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop > recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an > unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do > with how long they sat on the shelf. > > I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if > this downward trend will hold true for them. > > Joe Gray > W5JG > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > > There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates. > > > > I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it > provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to > recent questions. Here are three plots. > > > > > > 1) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ) > > > > A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each > frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The > X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What > you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some of > them show drift. > > > > For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 days > for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well > under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety of > drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this > scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift. > > > > But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two > things to do. Zoom in and zoom out. > > > > > > 2) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ) > > > > Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The > X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at > this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). At > this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the > one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. > This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not zero > drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day. > > > > For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) are > large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable. > > > > The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift > rate based on just one day of data. > > > > The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at > any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift > rate can change significantly from day to day to day. > > > > The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In > a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very > careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent > behavior. > > > > > > 3) attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ) > > > > Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the > Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary > thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore > for now. > > > > At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. > Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic but > the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common > scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the first > few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data. > > > > In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks > linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear > but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic > curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter > time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external > stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log > discussion. > > > > So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob > ;-) > > > > /tvb > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
JG
Joseph Gray
Sun, Nov 13, 2016 3:47 AM

I periodically check that.

On Nov 12, 2016 5:43 PM, "Adrian Godwin" artgodwin@gmail.com wrote:

What if your shop reference were drifting up ?

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Joseph Gray jgray@zianet.com wrote:

TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs.

I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20
years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM,
Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and
mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy,
most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various
model radios drift downward in frequency over time.

One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused
for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year
ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they
were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop
recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an
unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do
with how long they sat on the shelf.

I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if
this downward trend will hold true for them.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak tvb@leapsecond.com

wrote:

There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates.

I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it

provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to
recent questions. Here are three plots.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif (

A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each

frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The
X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What
you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some

of

them show drift.

For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10

days

for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well
under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety

of

drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this
scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift.

But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two

things to do. Zoom in and zoom out.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif (

Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The

X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at
this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment).

At

this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the
one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day.
This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not

zero

drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day.

For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability)

are

large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable.

The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift

rate based on just one day of data.

The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at

any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift
rate can change significantly from day to day to day.

The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In

a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very
careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent
behavior.

  1. attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif (

Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the

Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary
thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore
for now.

At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift.

Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic

but

the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common
scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the

first

few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data.

In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks

linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear
but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic
curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter
time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external
stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log
discussion.

So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob

;-)

/tvb


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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/

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and follow the instructions there.

I periodically check that. On Nov 12, 2016 5:43 PM, "Adrian Godwin" <artgodwin@gmail.com> wrote: > What if your shop reference were drifting up ? > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Joseph Gray <jgray@zianet.com> wrote: > > > TCXO, not OCXO, but related. Sorry, but I have no graphs. > > > > I work for a municipal radio shop. We service radios that span 20 > > years (through acquisitions, it was GE, Ericsson, Com-Net, M/A-COM, > > Tyco, now Harris). There are several different model handhelds and > > mobiles, with different designs and TCXO's. Some are adjusted manualy, > > most via software. I have found that every single TCXO in the various > > model radios drift downward in frequency over time. > > > > One interesting case was a set of radios that sat on the shelf, unused > > for several years. They were issued to some custodians about a year > > ago. I checked all of them on the service monitor beforehand and they > > were well within spec. All of these radios came back to the shop > > recently. They were 1-3 KHz low in transmit frequency. That is an > > unusual amount of drift in one year. Perhaps it has something to do > > with how long they sat on the shelf. > > > > I don't have enough history on our newest radios, so I don't know if > > this downward trend will hold true for them. > > > > Joe Gray > > W5JG > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb@leapsecond.com> > wrote: > > > There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates. > > > > > > I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it > > provides an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to > > recent questions. Here are three plots. > > > > > > > > > 1) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ( > > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e09.gif ) > > > > > > A bunch of oscillators are measured with a 20-channel system. Each > > frequency plot is a free-running TBolt (no GPS, no disciplining). The > > X-scale is 10 days and the Y-scale is 1 ppb, or 1e-9 per Y-division. What > > you see at this scale is that all the OCXO are quite stable. Also, some > of > > them show drift. > > > > > > For example, the OCXO frequency in channel 14 changes by 2e-9 in 10 > days > > for a drift rate of 2e-10/day. It looks large in this plot but its well > > under the typical spec, such as 5e-10/day for a 10811A. We see a variety > of > > drift rates, including some that appear to be zero: flat line. At this > > scale, CH13, for example, seems to have no drift. > > > > > > But the drift, when present, appears quite linear. So there are two > > things to do. Zoom in and zoom out. > > > > > > > > > 2) attached plot: TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ( > > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-10day-fit0-e10.gif ) > > > > > > Here we zoom in by changing the Y-scale to 1e-10 per division. The > > X-scale is still 10 days. Now we can see the drift much better. Also at > > this level we can see instability of each OCXO (or the lab environment). > At > > this scale, channels CH10 and CH14 are "off the chart". An OCXO like the > > one in CH01 climbs by 2e-10 over 10 days for a drift rate of 2e-11/day. > > This is 25x better than the 10811A spec. CH13, mentioned above, is not > zero > > drift after all, but its drift rate is even lower, close to 1e-11/day. > > > > > > For some oscillators the wiggles in the data (frequency instability) > are > > large enough that the drift rate is not clearly measurable. > > > > > > The 10-day plots suggests you would not want to try to measure drift > > rate based on just one day of data. > > > > > > The plots also suggest that drift rate is not a hard constant. Look at > > any of the 20 10-day plots. Your eye will tell you that the daily drift > > rate can change significantly from day to day to day. > > > > > > The plots show that an OCXO doesn't necessarily follow strict rules. In > > a sense they each have their own personality. So one needs to be very > > careful about algorithms that assume any sort of constant or consistent > > behavior. > > > > > > > > > 3) attached plot: TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ( > > http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/TBolt-100day-fit0-e08.gif ) > > > > > > Here we look at 100 days of data instead of just 10 days. To fit, the > > Y-scale is now 1e-8 per division. Once a month I created a temporary > > thermal event in the lab (the little "speed bumps") which we will ignore > > for now. > > > > > > At this long-term scale, OCXO in CH09 has textbook logarithmic drift. > > Also CH14 and CH16. In fact over 100 days most of them are logarithmic > but > > the coefficients vary considerably so it's hard to see this at a common > > scale. Note also the logarithmic curve is vastly more apparent in the > first > > few days or weeks of operation, but I don't have that data. > > > > > > In general, any exponential or log or parabolic or circular curve looks > > linear if you're looking close enough. A straight highway may look linear > > but the equator is circular. So most OCXO drift (age) with a logarithmic > > curve and this is visible over long enough measurements. But for shorter > > time spans it will appear linear. Or, more likely, internal and external > > stability issues will dominate and this spoils any linear vs. log > > discussion. > > > > > > So is it linear or log? The answer is it depends. Now I sound like Bob > > ;-) > > > > > > /tvb > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >