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Good evening Magnus Nice hearing again from you and I hate to disagree with you but you are wrong , Leeson did not add the flicker effect , this was done by my friend Dieter Scherer of HP, I added the neglected VCO term (pushing) and Everett the important effect of unloaded vs loaded Q. Please take a look at the complete modern liner noise equation to be found in https://www-docs.tu-cottbus.de/mikrowellentechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ulr_ habil_presentation.pdf see page 9 ! A complete up to date non-linear noise model for LC oscillators and its general validation can be found in https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/bitstream/11303/1306/1/Dokument_16.pdf 73 de Ulrich In a message dated 8/7/2016 6:30:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so that is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would have to be collected over a much larger set of people. BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail to include flicker noise, which is in Leesons model. It is a straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked. There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed. Cheers, Magnus On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > Here is another comment ; > > > this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical > report which we would like. > It seems that Edson did some great work before, > > > 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement > > > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf > > Vacuum tube oscillators > > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxx > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > time-nuts@febo.com writes: > > Good morning, > > yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or > function, > This paper is more about people and events and very little since ....... > > Ulrich > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > michaeljwouters@gmail.com writes: > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > important >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >> referenced . > > The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions sapphire > oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave oscillator that > incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he > tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. > > The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a history of > the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The > abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read > much about developments past 1970. > > Cheers > Michael > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: >> Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear mathematic is > > kind >> of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise speculation, I would >> have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern >> measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a > phase > noise test >> system. >> >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > important >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even >> referenced . >> >> I think he is really out of it . >> >> 73 de N1UL >> >> >> >> In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> john@miles.io writes: >> >>> >>> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally important >>> question >>> of measurements strangely not covered >>> >>> 73 de N 1 UL >>> >> >> I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on measurements > alone, >> but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little >> disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see only one > reference in the >> bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one hit (but no >> citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. >> >> -- john, KE5FX >> Miles Design LLC >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

 Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so
 that
 is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on
 record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would
 have to be collected over a much larger set of people.

 BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles.

 I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail
 to include flicker noise, *which is in Leesons model*. It is a
 straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his
 articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked.

 There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive
 detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented,
 incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

 On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:

 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 .......

 sapphire

 oscillator that

 history of

 mathematic  is

 speculation, I would

 important

 measurements

 only one

 hit (but no

 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

 _______________________________________________

 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

Dear Ulrich, Thanks for that additional information. I simply didn't know, and would probably find out if I had dug out all the papers. I haven't done that for this part of the field. Rather, it is only through discussions like this that we get the accumulated knowledge, so no worries. OK, good, more nice material to read. One learn things as one goes along, and it is only through exchanges that one can learn more, love to learn more! :) The reference to Dieter Scherer is on page 5 already. It would be handy if references to Dieter's contribution back in the day could be located. Always good to bring forward some hard evidence to add to the anecdotal part of insight. I could only find some HP seminiar notes on http://hparchive.com/seminar_notes.htm It is covered here from 1978: http://hparchive.com/seminar_notes/Scherer_Low_noise_source_design_and_test.pdf which on page 17 also have the same breakup of the modified Leeson model as you have on page 9 Cheers, Magnus On 08/08/2016 01:24 AM, KA2WEU@aol.com wrote: > Good evening Magnus > > Nice hearing again from you and I hate to disagree with you but you > are wrong , Leeson did not add the flicker effect , this was done by > my friend Dieter Scherer of HP, I added the neglected VCO term > (pushing) and Everett the important effect of unloaded vs loaded Q. > Please take a look at the complete modern liner noise equation to be > found in > > https://www-docs.tu-cottbus.de/mikrowellentechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ulr_habil_presentation.pdf > > see page 9 ! > > A complete up to date non-linear noise model for LC oscillators and > its general validation can be found in > > https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/bitstream/11303/1306/1/Dokument_16.pdf > > 73 de Ulrich > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/7/2016 6:30:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: > > Well, it is nothing but his personal recollection of the events, so > that > is expected. It represents one voice of several. Better have that on > record than it being lost. But it is not the complete story. That would > have to be collected over a much larger set of people. > > BTW. Ref 44 in this paper is one of Edson's articles. > > I've read Chapter 15 of Edson's book, and it provides a model, but fail > to include flicker noise, *which is in Leesons model*. It is a > straight-forward extension thought. I don't have access to any of his > articles, except the one-page letter that Rick linked. > > There is surely more work to be done to build a more comprehensive > detail of events, show where ideas came up, was re-invented, > incorporated and extended. Edson clearly contributed. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 08/07/2016 06:32 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote: > > Here is another comment ; > > > > > > this paper is too self-centered for it to be the reliable historical > > report which we would like. > > It seems that Edson did some great work before, > > > > > > 73 de Ulrich , and I agree with the statement > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/vto.pdf > > > > Vacuum tube oscillators > > > > > > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > xxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 9:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > time-nuts@febo.com writes: > > > > Good morning, > > > > yes I saw the reference but he did not point out what it was or > > function, > > This paper is more about people and events and very little since > ....... > > > > Ulrich > > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/2016 2:26:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > michaeljwouters@gmail.com writes: > > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > > <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > > > >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > > important > >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > >> referenced . > > > > The reference [145] at the end of the sentence that mentions > sapphire > > oscillators also discusses a hybrid photonic-microwave > oscillator that > > incorporates a room-temperature sapphire oscillator so I think he > > tried to cover both subjects with that single reference. > > > > The paper has a misleading title. It suggests that it is a > history of > > the last 50 years, when it is about events roughly 50 years ago. The > > abstract makes this clear though. So I didn't really expect to read > > much about developments past 1970. > > > > Cheers > > Michael > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:34 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts > > <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > >> Some of the cited references are poor, modern non-linear > mathematic is > > > > kind > >> of omitted . After all the oscillator phase noise > speculation, I would > >> have really liked to see at last a reference about the most modern > >> measurements techniques and it validation. How do you calibrate a > > phase > > noise test > >> system. > >> > >> Leeson produced a somewhat random selection of papers , omitting > > important > >> things like the sapphire based best in the word . This was not even > >> referenced . > >> > >> I think he is really out of it . > >> > >> 73 de N1UL > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 8/5/2016 7:11:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > >> john@miles.io writes: > >> > >>> > >>> Very selected and incomplete references and the equally > important > >>> question > >>> of measurements strangely not covered > >>> > >>> 73 de N 1 UL > >>> > >> > >> I suppose he could write an equally-lengthy article on > measurements > > alone, > >> but leaving out the post-1970s history entirely was a little > >> disappointing. It was strange to hit "ctrl-f Rohde" and see > only one > > reference in the > >> bibliography. Same for "Hewlett." "Rubiola" brings up one > hit (but no > >> citations) and "Stein" brings up none at all. > >> > >> -- john, KE5FX > >> Miles Design LLC > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >