ES
Eric Scace
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 7:20 PM
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
PL
Peter Laws
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 8:11 PM
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Meinberg's port of ntp.org's NTP source on the Windows systems. Same
(obviously not for Windows) is already on a Linux system.
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
ISTR that MacOS' most recent iteration of NTP has quirks but I don't
know what they are. Previously, it was just a straight NTP client ...
and NTP clients manage their update frequency dynamically based on
network latency - no good reason I know of to not let it just work.
If network connectivity is bad, the interval drops (minimum 2^6 s) if
the connectivity is good, it increases (max 2^10 s). Those end points
can probably be fiddled with in source if not in the config but again,
why?
--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:00 PM Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
> Are there other approaches that should be considered?
> What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Meinberg's port of ntp.org's NTP source on the Windows systems. Same
(obviously not for Windows) is already on a Linux system.
> Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
ISTR that MacOS' most recent iteration of NTP has quirks but I don't
know what they are. Previously, it was just a straight NTP client ...
and NTP clients manage their update frequency dynamically based on
network latency - no good reason I know of to not let it just work.
If network connectivity is bad, the interval drops (minimum 2^6 s) if
the connectivity is good, it increases (max 2^10 s). Those end points
can probably be fiddled with in source if not in the config but again,
why?
--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
ES
Eric Scace
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 8:32 PM
Sadly the formatting of the original message was stripped by the email server. Here is a slightly more comprehensible version.
On 2019 Oct 18, at 15:20 , Eric Scace eric@scace.org wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
ISSUE:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
-
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
-
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
-
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
-
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
-
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
BACKGROUND & EXISTING SITUATION:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
-
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
-
Linux servers
-
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
-
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
GOALS: (first pass)
-
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
-
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
-
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
-
leap second treatment:
− no smearing (minimum requirement)
− accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
-
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
-
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
-- If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
− Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
-
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
-
maintenance goals:
− "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
− standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere:
... identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
… identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
-
not too costly
-
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
POTENTIAL APPROACHES:
-
potential short-term:
− desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
− NTP checks:
… at least hourly?
… verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
… use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
-
clocks:
− replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
− remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
Note: While IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
-
potential medium term:
− add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
− potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
QUESTIONS:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources? For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
Sadly the formatting of the original message was stripped by the email server. Here is a slightly more comprehensible version.
On 2019 Oct 18, at 15:20 , Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
ISSUE:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
* on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
* computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
* desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
* wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
* requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
BACKGROUND & EXISTING SITUATION:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
* mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
* Linux servers
* mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
* some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
GOALS: (first pass)
* minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
* no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
* no manual intervention required for leap seconds
* leap second treatment:
− no smearing (minimum requirement)
− accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
* desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
* presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
-- If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
− Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
* medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
* maintenance goals:
− "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
− standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere:
... identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
… identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
* not too costly
* try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
POTENTIAL APPROACHES:
* potential short-term:
− desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
− NTP checks:
… at least hourly?
… verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
… use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
* clocks:
− replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
− remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
Note: While IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
* potential medium term:
− add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
− potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
QUESTIONS:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources? For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
BK
Bob kb8tq
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 8:33 PM
Hi
A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The main task is to make
sure that your devices are really running NTP and not some odd thing built into their OS. The
more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you have the more
exciting this gets.
Bob
On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace eric@scace.org wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
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Hi
A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The main task is to make
sure that your devices are *really* running NTP and not some odd thing built into their OS. The
more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you have the more
exciting this gets.
Bob
> On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
>
> I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
>
> Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
>
> — Eric
>
> Issue:
> A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
> on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
> computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
> desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
> servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
> wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
> requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
>
> Background & existing situation:
> Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
>
> In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
> mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
> Linux servers
> mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
>
> Goals: (first pass)
> minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
> no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
> no manual intervention required for leap seconds
> leap second:
> no smearing (minimum requirement)
> accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
> desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
> presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
> If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
> Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
> medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
> maintenance goals:
> "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
> standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
> identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
> identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
> not too costly
> try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
>
> Potential approaches:
> potential short-term:
> desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
> NTP checks:
> at least hourly?
> verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
> use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
> some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
> clocks:
> replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
> remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
> IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
> NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
> medium term:
> add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
> potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
>
> Questions:
> Are there other approaches that should be considered?
> What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
> Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
> If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
> For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
> What have we overlooked?
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
DC
David C. Partridge
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 9:00 PM
use Meinberg ntp if running Windows systems. If you can you can drive an analog display derived from the system time all the better as humans can relate to that better than a digital clock display.
Daviud
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Scace
Sent: 18 October 2019 20:20
To: Time Nuts email list
Subject: [time-nuts] can of worms: time-of-day in a community radio station
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
use Meinberg ntp if running Windows systems. If you can you can drive an analog display derived from the system time all the better as humans can relate to that better than a digital clock display.
Daviud
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Scace
Sent: 18 October 2019 20:20
To: Time Nuts email list
Subject: [time-nuts] can of worms: time-of-day in a community radio station
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
TK
Taka Kamiya
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 9:03 PM
I only have one idea. Something I thought of doing it myself but have not done so, yet.
I think syncing locations with GPS or ntp is good enough for time synchronization. But display could be problematic. As they make transition from one program to another, 1 second overlap or 1 second of blank is quite long. Listeners will certainly catch on to that.
I wanted a digital clock that has HH:MM:SS but below that are bar graph for sub-second. Say 10th of a second, one LED representing 1/10th. That way, they can count down and meet at 00 exactly enough for human perception. For this kind of thing, fast flying 10th digit isn't really useful as it's awfully hard to read, let alone read and do something else, like think of a word to fill that last 1/2 second.
I would think this kind of thing is easy enough to implement either as a hardware or an application on Windows/Linux workstation. Whatever the device to use, it must be synced with the master source. PC's clock can go off by 20 seconds per day quite easily. Even server class machines close to million dollars use cheap 32KHz fork crystal.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, October 18, 2019, 4:00:41 PM EDT, Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
I only have one idea. Something I thought of doing it myself but have not done so, yet.
I think syncing locations with GPS or ntp is good enough for time synchronization. But display could be problematic. As they make transition from one program to another, 1 second overlap or 1 second of blank is quite long. Listeners will certainly catch on to that.
I wanted a digital clock that has HH:MM:SS but below that are bar graph for sub-second. Say 10th of a second, one LED representing 1/10th. That way, they can count down and meet at 00 exactly enough for human perception. For this kind of thing, fast flying 10th digit isn't really useful as it's awfully hard to read, let alone read and do something else, like think of a word to fill that last 1/2 second.
I would think this kind of thing is easy enough to implement either as a hardware or an application on Windows/Linux workstation. Whatever the device to use, it must be synced with the master source. PC's clock can go off by 20 seconds per day quite easily. Even server class machines close to million dollars use cheap 32KHz fork crystal.
---------------------------------------
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, October 18, 2019, 4:00:41 PM EDT, Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
MF
Martin Flynn
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 10:57 PM
Our makerspace is using a BSD licensed product called OAS (On Air
Screen) in the studio, with a slave displays planned at the engineers
workstation, and in the Makerspace workshop . Link:
github.com/saschaludwig/OnAirScreen
OAS has been set up on an Raspberry PI, with the PoE shield on the back
of the monitor. OAS loads itself full-screen, no keyboard or mouse needed.
We are working on a supportable means to turn the various "lights" on
the display(s) on and off automatically over the network using UDP messages.
As an example: Our Wheatstone R60 console has a relay that activates
when any of mixer channels are active and feeding the main output. The
relay contacts will drive a logic (GPIO) pin on a single-board computer
(Xunlong Orange Pi Zero). The Pi Zero is running a python application
that will generate a UDP message on the network to activate the "on-air"
light on each display.
Obligatory Time nuts statement: Time standard is a Symmetricom XLi GPS
Disciplined TCXO with the 10MHz option
73
Martin
On 10/18/2019 4:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The main task is to make
sure that your devices are really running NTP and not some odd thing built into their OS. The
more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you have the more
exciting this gets.
Bob
On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace eric@scace.org wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Our makerspace is using a BSD licensed product called OAS (On Air
Screen) in the studio, with a slave displays planned at the engineers
workstation, and in the Makerspace workshop . Link:
github.com/saschaludwig/OnAirScreen
OAS has been set up on an Raspberry PI, with the PoE shield on the back
of the monitor. OAS loads itself full-screen, no keyboard or mouse needed.
We are working on a supportable means to turn the various "lights" on
the display(s) on and off automatically over the network using UDP messages.
As an example: Our Wheatstone R60 console has a relay that activates
when any of mixer channels are active and feeding the main output. The
relay contacts will drive a logic (GPIO) pin on a single-board computer
(Xunlong Orange Pi Zero). The Pi Zero is running a python application
that will generate a UDP message on the network to activate the "on-air"
light on each display.
Obligatory Time nuts statement: Time standard is a Symmetricom XLi GPS
Disciplined TCXO with the 10MHz option
73
Martin
On 10/18/2019 4:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The main task is to make
> sure that your devices are *really* running NTP and not some odd thing built into their OS. The
> more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you have the more
> exciting this gets.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
>>
>> I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
>>
>> Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
>>
>> — Eric
>>
>> Issue:
>> A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
>> on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
>> computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
>> desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
>> servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
>> wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
>> requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
>>
>> Background & existing situation:
>> Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
>>
>> In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
>> mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
>> Linux servers
>> mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
>>
>> Goals: (first pass)
>> minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
>> no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
>> no manual intervention required for leap seconds
>> leap second:
>> no smearing (minimum requirement)
>> accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
>> desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
>> presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
>> If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
>> Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
>> medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
>> maintenance goals:
>> "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
>> standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
>> identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
>> identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
>> not too costly
>> try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
>>
>> Potential approaches:
>> potential short-term:
>> desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
>> NTP checks:
>> at least hourly?
>> verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
>> use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
>> some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
>> clocks:
>> replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
>> remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
>> IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
>> NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
>> medium term:
>> add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
>> potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
>>
>> Questions:
>> Are there other approaches that should be considered?
>> What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
>> Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
>> If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
>> For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
>> What have we overlooked?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Oct 18, 2019 11:38 PM
Have no idea if they exist still but what you need is time of day clocks
and what are called shot clocks. A shot clock is a clock thats preloaded
with a segment duration and counts to zero. No thinking is the key. These
have been used for years and years.
That makes talents job very very easy.It also is up to them to get on time.
Most are good at that actually.
With respect to network feeds they simply do very generally towards late.
But they rubber band from my experience.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:02 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The
main task is to make
sure that your devices are really running NTP and not some odd thing
built into their OS. The
more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you
have the more
exciting this gets.
Bob
On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace eric@scace.org wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list
rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here
is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations
wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s
operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below)
cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds
(e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because
the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak
before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an
analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage
sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s
idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production
studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their
users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in
cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers
than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated.
Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to
some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve
these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds
and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital
in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the
LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second
of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause
program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second
throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not
be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day
displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form
(preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually
separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without
confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for
accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public
Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the
middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because
time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for
volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems,
and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and
straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling
needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not
eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance
advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app
providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13”
iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted
immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and
require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to
be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio
provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are
similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery
backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with
remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to
exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are
needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each
computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for
choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or
some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish
a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP
updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps
provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks,
primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to
choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/).
It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM
(optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the
typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each
hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it
happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away
from external program sources.
and follow the instructions there.
Have no idea if they exist still but what you need is time of day clocks
and what are called shot clocks. A shot clock is a clock thats preloaded
with a segment duration and counts to zero. No thinking is the key. These
have been used for years and years.
That makes talents job very very easy.It also is up to them to get on time.
Most are good at that actually.
With respect to network feeds they simply do very generally towards late.
But they rubber band from my experience.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:02 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> A very normal internet based NTP setup will do what you wish to do. The
> main task is to make
> sure that your devices are *really* running NTP and not some odd thing
> built into their OS. The
> more devices / operating systems / OS versions / system configurations you
> have the more
> exciting this gets.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:20 PM, Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
> >
> > I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list
> rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here
> is another such problem.
> >
> > Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
> >
> > — Eric
> >
> > Issue:
> > A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations
> wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s
> operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below)
> cause problems such as:
> > on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds
> (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because
> the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak
> before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an
> analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
> > computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage
> sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s
> idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
> > desktop computers throughout the station, including in production
> studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their
> users.
> > servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in
> cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
> > wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers
> than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated.
> Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
> > requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to
> some semblance of reality
> >
> > Background & existing situation:
> > Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve
> these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds
> and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
> >
> > In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
> > mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
> > Linux servers
> > mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital
> in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the
> LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
> >
> > Goals: (first pass)
> > minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second
> of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause
> program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
> > no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
> > no manual intervention required for leap seconds
> > leap second:
> > no smearing (minimum requirement)
> > accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
> > desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second
> throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not
> be perceived as out of step by a person.
> > presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day
> displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form
> (preferred H:MM).
> > If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually
> separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without
> confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
> > Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
> > medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for
> accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public
> Internet outages.
> > maintenance goals:
> > "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the
> middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because
> time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
> > standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
> > identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
> > identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for
> volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems,
> and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and
> straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
> > not too costly
> > try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling
> needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not
> eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance
> advantages
> >
> > Potential approaches:
> > potential short-term:
> > desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
> > NTP checks:
> > at least hourly?
> > verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
> > use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality
> NTP servers
> > some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
> > clocks:
> > replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app
> providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13”
> iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted
> immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
> > remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
> > IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and
> require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to
> be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio
> provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
> > NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are
> similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
> > medium term:
> > add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery
> backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with
> remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to
> exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are
> needed: one for each site plus sparing.
> > potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each
> computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
> >
> > Questions:
> > Are there other approaches that should be considered?
> > What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
> > Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for
> choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or
> some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish
> a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP
> updates?
> > If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps
> provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks,
> primary/secondary NTP sources?
> > For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to
> choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>).
> It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM
> (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the
> typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each
> hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it
> happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away
> from external program sources.
> > What have we overlooked?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
DJ
David J Taylor
Sat, Oct 19, 2019 5:42 AM
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather
oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is
another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
[]
---==============
Eric,
As others have mentioned, using the reference NTP should do the job with
margin to spare!
-
Windows, use the Meinberg port. I have some info here:
https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
-
Linux, NTP is usually installed by default, although it may be a release
or two behind. Usually this isn't important. Use "ntpq -pn" to see whether
you have it.
-
MAC, reference NTP is available (I believe), but you might need to compile
it.
-
For your one stratum-1 server you can use a GPS source would with a
Raspberry Pi, or even a Windows PC although that won't be quite as good, but
adequate for 0.01 seconds accuracy. Some notes here:
https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-quickstart.html
-
For a wall-clock from the Raspberry Pi:
https://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
I should really recompile this so that the RPi doesn't have to be rebooted
when the clocks change, but the compiler/software I used
(Lazarus/FreePascal) didn't have the required API call at the time.
-
using the pool servers for a few PCs is OK, I think, as all the PCs won't
be hitting the same pool servers. How many is "a few" - perhaps 20? Don't
use "stratum-1" public servers (e.g. time.nist.gov), as they are likely to
be overloaded and therefore not as accurate as you might expect. Using the
"pool" command in NTP and pool servers is likely to be just as good, if not
better.
I hope that gives you a little more food for thought.
Cheers,
David
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather
oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is
another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
[]
===============================================
Eric,
As others have mentioned, using the reference NTP should do the job with
margin to spare!
- Windows, use the Meinberg port. I have some info here:
https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
- Linux, NTP is usually installed by default, although it may be a release
or two behind. Usually this isn't important. Use "ntpq -pn" to see whether
you have it.
- MAC, reference NTP is available (I believe), but you might need to compile
it.
- For your one stratum-1 server you can use a GPS source would with a
Raspberry Pi, or even a Windows PC although that won't be quite as good, but
adequate for 0.01 seconds accuracy. Some notes here:
https://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-quickstart.html
- For a wall-clock from the Raspberry Pi:
https://www.satsignal.eu/raspberry-pi/DigitalClock.html
I should really recompile this so that the RPi doesn't have to be rebooted
when the clocks change, but the compiler/software I used
(Lazarus/FreePascal) didn't have the required API call at the time.
- using the pool servers for a few PCs is OK, I think, as all the PCs won't
be hitting the same pool servers. How many is "a few" - perhaps 20? Don't
use "stratum-1" public servers (e.g. time.nist.gov), as they are likely to
be overloaded and therefore not as accurate as you might expect. Using the
"pool" command in NTP and pool servers is likely to be just as good, if not
better.
I hope that gives you a little more food for thought.
Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
FC
Fiorenzo Cattaneo
Sat, Oct 19, 2019 8:15 AM
Here are (some) answers to your questions. Using NTP to synchronize
time across all machines is the one which makes the most sense IMHO.
In the past I setup the NTP server architecture for a "megacorp" I was
working for, and I have replicated the same setup (at a much smaller
case) in my house. My house has a wide mix of Linux, FeeBSD, Windows
and embedded clients such as IP videocameras, home controllers and
such ......
First, I second the recommendation to use Meinberg NTP server on
Windows, as Windows built-in client is quite poor.
For the NTP architecture layout, I would recommend having one to three
internal stratum-2 NTP servers which you can use for internal time
distribution.
- These stratum-2 NTP servers in turn synchronize with well known
public stratum 1 servers (at least 3, ideally 5)
- These stratum-2 NTP server peers with the others (if you have more than one)
- Each internal client would then synchronize to them directly and
thus would be a stratum-3 client.
With this setup you have no single point of failure, and even if the
connection to internet fails, they can still provide time as they are
peering and synchronizing with each other.
You can use this list to pick stratum 1 servers:
http://www.advtimesync.com/docs/manual/stratum1.html
When selecting them, make sure you comply with their access policies.
=========== example
Suppose your stratum-2 servers are clock1.local, clock2.local,
clock3.local. You ntp.conf would look something like this:
ntp.conf server list for clock1.local
public stratum 1 servers
server bigben.cac.washington.edu
server time-nw.nist.gov
server time.nist.gov
peers
peer clock2.local
peer clock3.local
Then all the clients would simply have clock1.local, clock2.local and
clock3.local as their NTP servers. Note that your NTP servers do not
need to be dedicated, you can use any of the existing machines, so
long as they are always up.
A second refinement you could do is to get a GPSDO or just a cheap GPS
receiver (serial is best, but USB should be OK given your requirement
is +/- 100 ms from UTC) and add that to the internal servers, which at
this point would become stratum 1 servers.
At my home I follow this setup except that I am a bit crazy, and
Iactually have 3 dedicated servers, one with a GPSDO, one with a GPS
receiver and one with a symmetricom/microsemi timing board + GPS. I'm
in the process of building a couple WWVB receivers so I can detect if
GPS is being jammed. Of course this is why I am a time-nut :-)
Best of luck !
-- Fio Cattaneo
Universal AC, can Entropy be reversed? -- "THERE IS AS YET
INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:00 PM Eric Scace eric@scace.org wrote:
I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
— Eric
Issue:
A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
Background & existing situation:
Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
Linux servers
mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
Goals: (first pass)
minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
no manual intervention required for leap seconds
leap second:
no smearing (minimum requirement)
accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
maintenance goals:
"eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
not too costly
try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
Potential approaches:
potential short-term:
desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
NTP checks:
at least hourly?
verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
use time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/ and similar higher-quality NTP servers
some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
clocks:
replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
medium term:
add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
Questions:
Are there other approaches that should be considered?
What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov http://time.nist.gov/). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
What have we overlooked?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Here are (some) answers to your questions. Using NTP to synchronize
time across all machines is the one which makes the most sense IMHO.
In the past I setup the NTP server architecture for a "megacorp" I was
working for, and I have replicated the same setup (at a much smaller
case) in my house. My house has a wide mix of Linux, FeeBSD, Windows
and embedded clients such as IP videocameras, home controllers and
such ......
First, I second the recommendation to use Meinberg NTP server on
Windows, as Windows built-in client is quite poor.
For the NTP architecture layout, I would recommend having one to three
internal stratum-2 NTP servers which you can use for internal time
distribution.
* These stratum-2 NTP servers in turn synchronize with well known
public stratum 1 servers (at least 3, ideally 5)
* These stratum-2 NTP server peers with the others (if you have more than one)
* Each internal client would then synchronize to them directly and
thus would be a stratum-3 client.
With this setup you have no single point of failure, and even if the
connection to internet fails, they can still provide time as they are
peering and synchronizing with each other.
You can use this list to pick stratum 1 servers:
http://www.advtimesync.com/docs/manual/stratum1.html
When selecting them, make sure you comply with their access policies.
=========== example
Suppose your stratum-2 servers are clock1.local, clock2.local,
clock3.local. You ntp.conf would look something like this:
# ntp.conf server list for clock1.local
# public stratum 1 servers
server bigben.cac.washington.edu
server time-nw.nist.gov
server time.nist.gov
# peers
peer clock2.local
peer clock3.local
Then all the clients would simply have clock1.local, clock2.local and
clock3.local as their NTP servers. Note that your NTP servers do not
need to be dedicated, you can use any of the existing machines, so
long as they are always up.
A second refinement you could do is to get a GPSDO or just a cheap GPS
receiver (serial is best, but USB should be OK given your requirement
is +/- 100 ms from UTC) and add that to the internal servers, which at
this point would become stratum 1 servers.
At my home I follow this setup except that I am a bit crazy, and
Iactually have 3 dedicated servers, one with a GPSDO, one with a GPS
receiver and one with a symmetricom/microsemi timing board + GPS. I'm
in the process of building a couple WWVB receivers so I can detect if
GPS is being jammed. Of course this is why I am a time-nut :-)
Best of luck !
-- Fio Cattaneo
Universal AC, can Entropy be reversed? -- "THERE IS AS YET
INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:00 PM Eric Scace <eric@scace.org> wrote:
>
> I fear that I am developing a reputation for bringing to the list rather oddball questions. In my rôle as agent provocateur, therefore, here is another such problem.
>
> Questions for you are at the end. Thanks for your thoughts,.
>
> — Eric
>
> Issue:
> A community broadcast radio station with multiple studio locations wishes to improve the display of time-of-day throughout the station’s operating environments. Its current legacy approaches (described below) cause problems such as:
> on-air presenters fail to smoothly segue into scheduled program feeds (e.g., BBC news) because the studio clock is “a little off”… and because the studio clock is digital. [Quick: how many more seconds can you speak before the top of the hour when a digital clock shows 4:59:42? Watching an analog stepping second hand is much easier in this situation.]
> computers that automatically capture audio programs to files in storage sometimes truncate the start or end of the program because the computer’s idea of time-of-day disagrees with that of the program source.
> desktop computers throughout the station, including in production studios, all render slightly different versions of time-of-day to their users.
> servers (e.g, for streaming, for archiving shows) are similarly in cheerful disagreement as to time of day.
> wall clocks studios in one city show a different time to their engineers than the studios in another city, rendering handoffs more complicated. Ditto for remote broadcast sites, and even between studios in the same site.
> requires manual intervention to bring the most egregious systems back to some semblance of reality
>
> Background & existing situation:
> Commercial broadcast stations have more money and technology to solve these problems. In contrast, “community radio” stations have limited funds and are largely staffed by volunteers (like me!).
>
> In this case, the existing systems are a hodgepodge:
> mostly Windows OS PCs, with a couple of Macs
> Linux servers
> mash-mash of wall clocks, the best of which is a LaCrosse WWVB digital in the primary on-air studio. The WWVB signal is more than adequate but the LaCross display format is sub-optimal for studio use.
>
> Goals: (first pass)
> minimum accuracy requirement: time-of-day displayed within ±0.1 second of UTC timescale. (Two clocks both falling outside this range will cause program handoffs to be uncomfortably tight or loose.)
> no manual intervention required for summer/winter time transitions
> no manual intervention required for leap seconds
> leap second:
> no smearing (minimum requirement)
> accurate leap second display (desirable but unlikely to be achievable)
> desirable consistency goal: time-of-day displayed within ±0.025 second throughout each site. At this level, two adjacent clock displays will not be perceived as out of step by a person.
> presentation goals: studio/remote broadcast control point time-of-day displayed in both analog (with stepped seconds hands) and digital form (preferred H:MM).
> If digital form includes seconds, the seconds digits should be visually separated; e.g..smaller. A presenter can then, at a glance and without confusion, announce the time (“four twenty-three”) from the digital display.
> Date in form “Oct 17 Thu” available.
> medium-term desirable: displays continue within specs for accuracy/consistency across power cutovers (to/from generator) and public Internet outages.
> maintenance goals:
> "eschew emergencies”: no one should have to rush to the station in the middle of the night, nor drop what their doing during the day, because time-of-day display has failed or gone out-of-spec.
> standardize on the same hardware/software everywhere
> identical hardware allows more cost-effective 1:N sparing
> identical hardware/software means less confusion and less training for volunteers. (There are a large number of volunteers who use these systems, and most contribute time less than once per week. Consistency and straightforwardness in the toolkit improves the quality of on-air results.)
> not too costly
> try to avoid stringing a lot of new cabling around… but such cabling needs are recognized as a one-time investment, so this preference does not eliminate a cable-based solution that has other operational/maintenance advantages
>
> Potential approaches:
> potential short-term:
> desktops and servers: better NTP configuration
> NTP checks:
> at least hourly?
> verify NTP utility employs reasonable averaging of multiple NTP servers
> use time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/> and similar higher-quality NTP servers
> some systems are on in-house Ethernet; others on in-house wi-fi
> clocks:
> replace with refurb iPads running a dedicated time-of-day display app providing both analog and digital form. A refurb wall- or desk-mounted 13” iPad in locking frame runs about $100. Smaller sizes can be mounted immediately adjacent to or atop a studio mixing board.
> remote field broadcast site: iPad over local wi-fi or cellular data?
> IRIG displays could be awesome, but seem far more costly per display and require pulling coax — and integrated analog + digital displays appear to be less common. Two displays (one analog, the other digital) in each studio provide some redundancy but costs go up fast.
> NTP-clocks powered over ethernet could similarly be awesome, but are similarly more costly and few integrated analog + digital displays exist.
> medium term:
> add in-house NTP server (with GPS and reasonable holdover plus battery backup) on each city’s on-site LAN/wi-fi networks as primary source, with remote public NTP servers as secondary. Many suitable models appear to exist, including the ESE E-911 units mentioned recently. Only a few are needed: one for each site plus sparing.
> potentially increase the frequency of NTP synchronization for each computer/display clock when a local NTP server has been installed.
>
> Questions:
> Are there other approaches that should be considered?
> What NTP software should be used on Windows OS machines? Linux servers?
> Mac OS allows one choice of NTP server but does not seem to provide for choice of NTP update frequency. Is there a 3rd party software solution, or some other parameter within MacOS that an admin can change to (a) establish a primary and secondary NTP server, and (b) set the frequency of NTP updates?
> If one were to use an iPad to display time-of-day, what iPad apps provide the needed display formats, frequency of NTP checks, primary/secondary NTP sources?
> For example, Atomic Clock Gorgy updates hourly and allows the user to choose one NTP server group (e.g., time.nist.gov <http://time.nist.gov/>). It has an analog seconds display format (circle of dots), digital H:MM (optional :SS), and MMM D DDD — although one could quibble over the typography. However, the display shows “SYNC” for a couple of seconds each hour while the NTP update occurs, which would be disconcerting if it happens when a presenter/engineer is in the midst of joining/cutting away from external program sources.
> What have we overlooked?
>
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