TS
Todd Smith
Fri, Sep 2, 2022 7:31 PM
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked on
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice solution
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using the
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including HP-117
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps bpsk
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received signal
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync with
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and clock
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to use
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage hardware
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One d-psk-r
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate the
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA sentences
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with that.
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the problem.
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written up
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if you're
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are other
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am receiving
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the LFR
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the phase
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am high
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe that
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI and it
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get to
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an
email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey Todd,
>
> I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
> modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked on
> solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice solution
> and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using the
> "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including HP-117
> phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
> Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
>
> The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps bpsk
> code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received signal
> directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync with
> the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and clock
> the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to use
> GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage hardware
> to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One d-psk-r
> can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate the
> GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
> drive
> the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA sentences
> and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
> including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with that.
> I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the problem.
>
> If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
> topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
> irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written up
> some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if you're
> interested.
>
> I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
> improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are other
> list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
> still
> a topic worth pursuing.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Rodger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
> To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
>
> Hello
>
>
>
> I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
> couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
> equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am receiving
> signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the LFR
> antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
> since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
>
>
>
> I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
> phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the phase
> modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
> WVVB
> receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am high
> enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe that
> I
> am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI and it
> never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
>
>
>
> If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get to
> correct the signal format?
>
>
>
> Thank you for your time
>
> Todd Smith
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send an
> email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>
>
G/
Graham / KE9H
Fri, Sep 2, 2022 10:02 PM
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver (back
when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice solution
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps bpsk
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate the
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the problem.
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written up
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if you're
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am receiving
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the phase
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI and
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver (back
when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
> long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
> from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for these
> units.
>
> I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in DC
> is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
> from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
> number in CO.
>
> The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I can
> use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
> protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
>
> I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
> the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it the
> correct 60kHz signal.
>
> I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey Todd,
> >
> > I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
> > modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
> on
> > solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice solution
> > and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
> the
> > "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
> HP-117
> > phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
> > Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
> >
> > The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps bpsk
> > code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
> signal
> > directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
> with
> > the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
> clock
> > the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
> use
> > GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
> hardware
> > to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
> d-psk-r
> > can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate the
> > GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
> > drive
> > the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
> sentences
> > and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
> > including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
> that.
> > I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the problem.
> >
> > If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
> > topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
> > irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written up
> > some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if you're
> > interested.
> >
> > I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
> > improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
> other
> > list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
> > still
> > a topic worth pursuing.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Rodger
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
> > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
> >
> > Hello
> >
> >
> >
> > I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
> > couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
> > equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am receiving
> > signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
> LFR
> > antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
> > since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
> > phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the phase
> > modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
> > WVVB
> > receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
> high
> > enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
> that
> > I
> > am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI and
> it
> > never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
> >
> >
> >
> > If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
> to
> > correct the signal format?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your time
> >
> > Todd Smith
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
> an
> > email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>
TS
Todd Smith
Sat, Sep 3, 2022 1:23 PM
I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
RS232.
I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
resistors.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H ke9h.graham@gmail.com wrote:
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
(back when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
RS232.
I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
resistors.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote:
> Todd:
>
> What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
> look like?
> What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
> (back when it worked?
>
> --- Graham
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
>> I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
>> long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
>> from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
>> these
>> units.
>>
>> I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
>> DC
>> is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
>> from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
>> number in CO.
>>
>> The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
>> can
>> use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
>> protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
>>
>> I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
>> the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
>> the
>> correct 60kHz signal.
>>
>> I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Todd
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hey Todd,
>> >
>> > I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
>> > modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
>> on
>> > solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
>> solution
>> > and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
>> the
>> > "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
>> HP-117
>> > phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
>> > Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
>> >
>> > The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
>> bpsk
>> > code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
>> signal
>> > directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
>> with
>> > the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
>> clock
>> > the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
>> use
>> > GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
>> hardware
>> > to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
>> d-psk-r
>> > can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
>> the
>> > GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
>> > drive
>> > the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
>> sentences
>> > and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
>> > including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
>> that.
>> > I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
>> problem.
>> >
>> > If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
>> > topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
>> > irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
>> up
>> > some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
>> you're
>> > interested.
>> >
>> > I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
>> > improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
>> other
>> > list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
>> > still
>> > a topic worth pursuing.
>> >
>> > Good luck,
>> >
>> > Rodger
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
>> > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> > Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
>> >
>> > Hello
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
>> > couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
>> > equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
>> receiving
>> > signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
>> LFR
>> > antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
>> > since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
>> > phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
>> phase
>> > modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
>> > WVVB
>> > receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
>> high
>> > enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
>> that
>> > I
>> > am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
>> and it
>> > never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
>> to
>> > correct the signal format?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thank you for your time
>> >
>> > Todd Smith
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
>> an
>> > email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>>
>
PS
paul swed
Sat, Sep 3, 2022 2:37 PM
That would be true for the AM modulated wwvb signal. I don't think you can
find the old demodulator chips much any more. But they were very easy to
use.
I would have believed the s300 receiver would have been a far better design
though.
Or the other possibility is the receiver was in the antenna and simply used
coax for power and signal.
Just guessing.
Good luck
Paul
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 10:10 AM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
RS232.
I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
resistors.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H ke9h.graham@gmail.com wrote:
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
(back when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
That would be true for the AM modulated wwvb signal. I don't think you can
find the old demodulator chips much any more. But they were very easy to
use.
I would have believed the s300 receiver would have been a far better design
though.
Or the other possibility is the receiver was in the antenna and simply used
coax for power and signal.
Just guessing.
Good luck
Paul
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 10:10 AM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
> the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
> The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
> connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
> the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
> RS232.
>
> I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
> circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
> doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
> resistors.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Todd:
> >
> > What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the
> unit
> > look like?
> > What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
> > (back when it worked?
> >
> > --- Graham
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for
> a
> >> long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M
> receivers
> >> from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
> >> these
> >> units.
> >>
> >> I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
> >> DC
> >> is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report
> that
> >> from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
> >> number in CO.
> >>
> >> The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
> >> can
> >> use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or
> to
> >> protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
> >>
> >> I would very much like to see what options are available to either
> modify
> >> the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
> >> the
> >> correct 60kHz signal.
> >>
> >> I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your help.
> >> Todd
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey Todd,
> >> >
> >> > I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
> >> > modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have
> worked
> >> on
> >> > solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
> >> solution
> >> > and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are
> using
> >> the
> >> > "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
> >> HP-117
> >> > phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom
> comparators,
> >> > Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
> >> >
> >> > The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
> >> bpsk
> >> > code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
> >> signal
> >> > directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
> >> with
> >> > the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
> >> clock
> >> > the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating
> to
> >> use
> >> > GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
> >> hardware
> >> > to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
> >> d-psk-r
> >> > can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
> >> the
> >> > GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
> >> > drive
> >> > the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
> >> sentences
> >> > and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
> >> > including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
> >> that.
> >> > I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
> >> problem.
> >> >
> >> > If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on
> the
> >> > topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and
> soldering
> >> > irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
> >> up
> >> > some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
> >> you're
> >> > interested.
> >> >
> >> > I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
> >> > improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
> >> other
> >> > list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
> >> > still
> >> > a topic worth pursuing.
> >> >
> >> > Good luck,
> >> >
> >> > Rodger
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> >> > Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
> >> >
> >> > Hello
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to
> refurb a
> >> > couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
> >> > equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
> >> receiving
> >> > signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
> >> LFR
> >> > antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the
> GUI
> >> > since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM
> to a
> >> > phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
> >> phase
> >> > modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get
> another
> >> > WVVB
> >> > receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
> >> high
> >> > enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
> >> that
> >> > I
> >> > am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
> >> and it
> >> > never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can
> get
> >> to
> >> > correct the signal format?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for your time
> >> >
> >> > Todd Smith
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
> send
> >> an
> >> > email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
BK
Bob kb8tq
Sat, Sep 3, 2022 6:36 PM
Hi
One as yet unasked question:
What sort of antenna are you using to feed WWVB into the device?
Is it the one that Symmetricom used? In the past, I’ve had way more
trouble locating correct antennas than finding this or that WWVB
based device ….. On some devices much of the receiver was in the
antenna. There are a number of older GPS based devices with the
same sort of issues.
Bob
On Sep 3, 2022, at 5:23 AM, Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
RS232.
I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
resistors.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H ke9h.graham@gmail.com wrote:
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
(back when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
Hi
One as yet unasked question:
What sort of antenna are you using to feed WWVB into the device?
Is it the one that Symmetricom used? In the past, I’ve had way more
trouble locating correct antennas than finding this or that WWVB
based device ….. On some devices much of the receiver was in the
antenna. There are a number of older GPS based devices with the
same sort of issues.
Bob
> On Sep 3, 2022, at 5:23 AM, Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have at
> the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
> The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
> connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given that
> the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
> RS232.
>
> I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
> circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
> doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and several
> resistors.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Todd:
>>
>> What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the unit
>> look like?
>> What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
>> (back when it worked?
>>
>> --- Graham
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at for a
>>> long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M receivers
>>> from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
>>> these
>>> units.
>>>
>>> I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line in
>>> DC
>>> is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report that
>>> from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working USNO
>>> number in CO.
>>>
>>> The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
>>> can
>>> use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or to
>>> protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
>>>
>>> I would very much like to see what options are available to either modify
>>> the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
>>> the
>>> correct 60kHz signal.
>>>
>>> I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> Todd
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Todd,
>>>>
>>>> I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
>>>> modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have worked
>>> on
>>>> solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
>>> solution
>>>> and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are using
>>> the
>>>> "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
>>> HP-117
>>>> phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom comparators,
>>>> Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
>>>>
>>>> The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
>>> bpsk
>>>> code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
>>> signal
>>>> directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
>>> with
>>>> the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
>>> clock
>>>> the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating to
>>> use
>>>> GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
>>> hardware
>>>> to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
>>> d-psk-r
>>>> can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
>>> the
>>>> GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
>>>> drive
>>>> the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
>>> sentences
>>>> and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
>>>> including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
>>> that.
>>>> I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on the
>>>> topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and soldering
>>>> irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
>>> up
>>>> some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
>>> you're
>>>> interested.
>>>>
>>>> I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
>>>> improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
>>> other
>>>> list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
>>>> still
>>>> a topic worth pursuing.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck,
>>>>
>>>> Rodger
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
>>>> To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
>>>>
>>>> Hello
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to refurb a
>>>> couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
>>>> equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
>>> receiving
>>>> signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
>>> LFR
>>>> antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the GUI
>>>> since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM to a
>>>> phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
>>> phase
>>>> modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get another
>>>> WVVB
>>>> receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
>>> high
>>>> enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
>>> that
>>>> I
>>>> am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
>>> and it
>>>> never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can get
>>> to
>>>> correct the signal format?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your time
>>>>
>>>> Todd Smith
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe send
>>> an
>>>> email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>>>
>>
> <PXL_20220829_183509685.jpg>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
TS
Todd Smith
Sat, Sep 3, 2022 7:18 PM
Bob,
It is the correct LFR antenna that was installed when the unit was new.
The antenna is a flat disk that is currently pointing toward Fort Collins,
CO.
Todd
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022, 14:36 Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
One as yet unasked question:
What sort of antenna are you using to feed WWVB into the device?
Is it the one that Symmetricom used? In the past, I’ve had way more
trouble locating correct antennas than finding this or that WWVB
based device ….. On some devices much of the receiver was in the
antenna. There are a number of older GPS based devices with the
same sort of issues.
Bob
On Sep 3, 2022, at 5:23 AM, Todd Smith via time-nuts <
I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have
the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given
the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
RS232.
I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and
Todd:
What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the
look like?
What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
(back when it worked?
--- Graham
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at
long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M
from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
these
units.
I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line
DC
is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report
from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working
number in CO.
The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
can
use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or
protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
I would very much like to see what options are available to either
the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
the
correct 60kHz signal.
I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
Thanks for your help.
Todd
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 rodger_adams@yahoo.com wrote:
Hey Todd,
I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have
solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are
"corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom
Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating
GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
drive
the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on
topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and
irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
interested.
I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
still
a topic worth pursuing.
Good luck,
Rodger
-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Smith via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Cc: Todd Smith tssmith2002@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
Hello
I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to
couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the
since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM
phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get
WVVB
receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
I
am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can
correct the signal format?
Thank you for your time
Todd Smith
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
<PXL_20220829_183509685.jpg>_______________________________________________
Bob,
It is the correct LFR antenna that was installed when the unit was new.
The antenna is a flat disk that is currently pointing toward Fort Collins,
CO.
Todd
On Sat, Sep 3, 2022, 14:36 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> One as yet unasked question:
>
> What sort of antenna are you using to feed WWVB into the device?
> Is it the one that Symmetricom used? In the past, I’ve had way more
> trouble locating correct antennas than finding this or that WWVB
> based device ….. On some devices much of the receiver was in the
> antenna. There are a number of older GPS based devices with the
> same sort of issues.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Sep 3, 2022, at 5:23 AM, Todd Smith via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am away from the unit for the holiday but the only picture that I have
> at
> > the moment is this one which shows the Multi tech modem attached to it.
> > The board contains the LFR and a spot for an optional modem. It is
> > connected to the main system board by a multipin ribbon cable. Given
> that
> > the system board contains a Intel Atom N2700, this connection might be
> > RS232.
> >
> > I will try to get a better picture on Tuesday but there is very little
> > circuitry on this daughter card except for the modem. I guess there
> > doesn't take much to decode WVVB. I think I remember just 1 IC and
> several
> > resistors.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 18:02 Graham / KE9H <ke9h.graham@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Todd:
> >>
> >> What does the interface between the WWVB receiver and the rest of the
> unit
> >> look like?
> >> What timing accuracy did they spec when running off the WWVB receiver
> >> (back when it worked?
> >>
> >> --- Graham
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 2:40 PM Todd Smith via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I inherited these two units at work and they haven't been looked at
> for a
> >>> long time since they just work. I ordered two replacement M12M
> receivers
> >>> from Jackson Labs to deal with the GPS rollover coming up in Sept for
> >>> these
> >>> units.
> >>>
> >>> I was looking at the modem logs and it looks like the USNO modem line
> in
> >>> DC
> >>> is down. It rings but doesn't pick up. I didn't see a way to report
> that
> >>> from the website. I updated the numbers to NIST and to the working
> USNO
> >>> number in CO.
> >>>
> >>> The LFR and GPS antenna are already run and are working. I know that I
> >>> can
> >>> use GPS but I wanted to have all timing options running for backups or
> to
> >>> protect from GPS failure or spoofing.
> >>>
> >>> I would very much like to see what options are available to either
> modify
> >>> the existing LFR board or put something in front of it that can send it
> >>> the
> >>> correct 60kHz signal.
> >>>
> >>> I know that it is not necessary but I like things working on my watch.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your help.
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 14:20 <rodger_adams@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hey Todd,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think you are probably correct that your issue is caused by the BPSK
> >>>> modulation. There are at least 2 members of this list that have
> worked
> >>> on
> >>>> solutions to the BPSK removal problem. Paul Swed created a nice
> >>> solution
> >>>> and he and I are currently running this "d-psk-r" circuit and are
> using
> >>> the
> >>>> "corrected" WWVB signal to drive various old WWVB devices, including
> >>> HP-117
> >>>> phase comparator, Fluke 207 comparator, various Spectracom
> comparators,
> >>>> Spectracom Netclocks, R-1407/URQ comparator, and probably a few more.
> >>>>
> >>>> The d-psk-r that we are running uses an Arduino to generate the 1pps
> >>> bpsk
> >>>> code and then a simple mixer (phase flipper) to process the received
> >>> signal
> >>>> directly at 60 khz. Of course the Arduino circuit needs to be in sync
> >>> with
> >>>> the WWVB phase modulation so we use a GPS module to get the time and
> >>> clock
> >>>> the Arduino using the GPS's PPS output. It might seem like cheating
> to
> >>> use
> >>>> GPS to correct the WWVB BPSK but if the goal is to return vintage
> >>> hardware
> >>>> to operation it's a pretty good way to go and works very well. One
> >>> d-psk-r
> >>>> can drive all the 60 khz devices you want. If you want to eliminate
> >>> the
> >>>> GPS cheat, there are other ways to go. I've created a module that can
> >>>> drive
> >>>> the d-psk-r Arduino using a WWVB clock module emulating GPS NMEA
> >>> sentences
> >>>> and PPS pulses. There are also some other circuits floating around
> >>>> including a Costas loop demodulator but I didn't have much luck with
> >>> that.
> >>>> I'm not aware of any commercially available product to solve the
> >>> problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you search the group archives you'll find lots of discussions on
> the
> >>>> topic. If you're not afraid to play around with Arduinos and
> soldering
> >>>> irons, you can build the d-psk-r easily for under $100. We've written
> >>> up
> >>>> some pretty reasonable documentation which we're happy to share if
> >>> you're
> >>>> interested.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know that Paul and I are still currently using (and to some extent
> >>>> improving) his d-psk-r. I'd be very interested to learn if there are
> >>> other
> >>>> list members using any other solution(s) or if anyone even thinks it's
> >>>> still
> >>>> a topic worth pursuing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Good luck,
> >>>>
> >>>> Rodger
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Todd Smith via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2022 11:49 AM
> >>>> To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> Cc: Todd Smith <tssmith2002@gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Syncserver S300 LFR 60 kHz WVVB
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I stumbled upon this list while looking for some information to
> refurb a
> >>>> couple of older Symmetricom (Microsemi) S300 Syncserver NTP appliances
> >>>> equipped with the optional LFR 60 kHz kit. I believe that I am
> >>> receiving
> >>>> signal at my location since the LED on the back of the unit beside the
> >>> LFR
> >>>> antenna port blinks while it is running. It shows unlocked in the
> GUI
> >>>> since it is apparently not decoding the signal.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I have read where in 2012, NIST changed the format for WVVB from AM
> to a
> >>>> phase modulation and some receivers might not be able to decode the
> >>> phase
> >>>> modulation. Do you think that is the case here? I need to get
> another
> >>>> WVVB
> >>>> receiver and test that I can receive signal at this location but I am
> >>> high
> >>>> enough and away from interference sources so that leads me to believe
> >>> that
> >>>> I
> >>>> am probably receiving signal. Over 72 hours on the graph in the GUI
> >>> and it
> >>>> never decodes a signal yet the back blinks the entire time.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If phase modulation is the issue; is there a demodulator that I can
> get
> >>> to
> >>>> correct the signal format?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you for your time
> >>>>
> >>>> Todd Smith
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe
> send
> >>> an
> >>>> email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
> >>>
> >>
> >
> <PXL_20220829_183509685.jpg>_______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>
>
