Re: [time-nuts] EFOS Maser turns 34!
On 8 Jan 2017 17:34, "Bob Camp" kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
You are talking about a project that will take many years and likely
more money than the price of a new home. If that is “fun money”, then
fine. For most people that sort of commitment is a bit outside the range
of do it for fun.
It would be interesting to see your breakdown of the costs and man hours
for an H2 maser. I suspect that others would find cheaper/faster solutions.
Even as a “fun project”, I question the bang for the buck. If cost and
time
are no object, why not do an optical ion standard or a Cesium fountain?
I would suggest that both are more cool than than a maser and likely
have a lot more fun aspects to them. You then would have something
truly unique and not simply a more expensive / poorer performing example
of something you could have bought.
You raise an interesting point.
I suspect that if a serious attempt was made at a caesium fountain by a
group of people, they might end up with donated parts from places like
NIST, NPL etc.
Commercial sponsorship could conceivability be an option to funding such a
project, as could wealthy individuals like Richard Branson or James Dyson,
both of whom are interested in technically challenging projects.
$100 would not go far, but I personally would be willing to donate $100
towards the cost of such a project, just to feel part of it.
Bob
Dave
Bob, Dave,
The most big problem is to find a group of relatively close people with the will to spend many hours, months for this project.
Here in Italy I found some people who work in public university who are available to give external help, for example they were
given a Pirani sensor and they are available to provide a turbo-molecular pump.
I've found who I could also realize the resonant cavity and the necessary mechanical parts but not the team..
The main problem is to find three or four helpful people who have the courage to start this adventure.
Luciano
www.timeok.it
From "time-nuts" time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Cc
Date Mon, 9 Jan 2017 09:35:32 +0000
Subject Re: [time-nuts] hm H Maser
On 8 Jan 2017 17:34, "Bob Camp" kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
You are talking about a project that will take many years and likely
more money than the price of a new home. If that is “fun money”, then
fine. For most people that sort of commitment is a bit outside the range
of do it for fun.
It would be interesting to see your breakdown of the costs and man hours
for an H2 maser. I suspect that others would find cheaper/faster solutions.
Even as a “fun project”, I question the bang for the buck. If cost and
time
are no object, why not do an optical ion standard or a Cesium fountain?
I would suggest that both are more cool than than a maser and likely
have a lot more fun aspects to them. You then would have something
truly unique and not simply a more expensive / poorer performing example
of something you could have bought.
You raise an interesting point.
I suspect that if a serious attempt was made at a caesium fountain by a
group of people, they might end up with donated parts from places like
NIST, NPL etc.
Commercial sponsorship could conceivability be an option to funding such a
project, as could wealthy individuals like Richard Branson or James Dyson,
both of whom are interested in technically challenging projects.
$100 would not go far, but I personally would be willing to donate $100
towards the cost of such a project, just to feel part of it.
Bob
Dave
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Hi
Ok here are some rough numbers:
On Jan 9, 2017, at 4:35 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
On 8 Jan 2017 17:34, "Bob Camp" kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
You are talking about a project that will take many years and likely
more money than the price of a new home. If that is “fun money”, then
fine. For most people that sort of commitment is a bit outside the range
of do it for fun.
It would be interesting to see your breakdown of the costs and man hours
for an H2 maser. I suspect that others would find cheaper/faster solutions.
$100M for the H2
$25M for the Rb
Even as a “fun project”, I question the bang for the buck. If cost and
time
are no object, why not do an optical ion standard or a Cesium fountain?
I would suggest that both are more cool than than a maser and likely
have a lot more fun aspects to them. You then would have something
truly unique and not simply a more expensive / poorer performing example
of something you could have bought.
You raise an interesting point.
I suspect that if a serious attempt was made at a caesium fountain by a
group of people, they might end up with donated parts from places like
NIST, NPL etc.
Commercial sponsorship could conceivability be an option to funding such a
project, as could wealthy individuals like Richard Branson or James Dyson,
both of whom are interested in technically challenging projects.
$100 would not go far, but I personally would be willing to donate $100
towards the cost of such a project, just to feel part of it.
$500M for the fountain.
To get sponsorship for anything remotely close to those numbers, you
need to have some massively good credentials.
Bob
Bob
Dave
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Once 9 Jan 2017 12:59, "Bob Camp" kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
Ok here are some rough numbers:
On Jan 9, 2017, at 4:35 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
It would be interesting to see your breakdown of the costs and man hours
for an H2 maser. I suspect that others would find cheaper/faster
solutions.
$100M for the H2
$25M for the Rb
With all due respect, and I apprectiate you have a good knowledge of this
field, but that's not a breakdown of costs or man hours I wanted to see,
but a cost which appears to be plucked from the air.
There's a BIG difference between a volunteer effort where
- Salaries are not paid
- Items of test equipment are likely to be borrowed or people provide
access to them for no charge etc, - Academics are likely to provide consultancy for free, in return for being
on papers published. - Software licenses could probably be obtained free, or enough people get
trials.
compared to a commercial company building a maser where
- Salaries are paid
- All equipment is purchased new
- Bench power supplies with 3.5 digit displays are sent out for calibration
each year. - No outside body will do anything except at a commercial rate.
- Flights are booked for meetings which could be done over the Internet.
- High end software licenses are huge.
$500M for the fountain.
But on what basis do you arrive at that figure?
To get sponsorship for anything remotely close to those numbers, you
need to have some massively good credentials.
Bob
Yes agreed at $500M. But someone like Tom, who does have massively good
credentials, could perhaps get $500,000, and perhaps that wisely spent
could get a fountain built. Without knowing how you arrive at $500M, it is
not possible for anyone to look at ways of shaving that cost.
The Lovell Telescope at Jodrell Bank in the UK was built on a shoestring
budget. It was at the time the world's largest steerable radio telephone.
Half a century later only 2 larger ones have been built.
Maybe I am too nieve.
Dave.
Hi
On Jan 10, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
Once 9 Jan 2017 12:59, "Bob Camp" kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
Ok here are some rough numbers:
On Jan 9, 2017, at 4:35 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
It would be interesting to see your breakdown of the costs and man hours
for an H2 maser. I suspect that others would find cheaper/faster
solutions.
$100M for the H2
$25M for the Rb
With all due respect, and I apprectiate you have a good knowledge of this
field, but that's not a breakdown of costs or man hours I wanted to see,
but a cost which appears to be plucked from the air.
Hardly plucked from the air. The last Rb design that I was involved with was
roughly 5X that expensive.
There's a BIG difference between a volunteer effort where
- Salaries are not paid
- Items of test equipment are likely to be borrowed or people provide
access to them for no charge etc, - Academics are likely to provide consultancy for free, in return for being
on papers published. - Software licenses could probably be obtained free, or enough people get
trials.
That’s where the 5:1 cost reduction comes from.
compared to a commercial company building a maser where
- Salaries are paid
- All equipment is purchased new
- Bench power supplies with 3.5 digit displays are sent out for calibration
each year. - No outside body will do anything except at a commercial rate.
- Flights are booked for meetings which could be done over the Internet.
- High end software licenses are huge.
$500M for the fountain.
But on what basis do you arrive at that figure?
The numbers that the people who have done it come up with when you talk to them.
To get sponsorship for anything remotely close to those numbers, you
need to have some massively good credentials.
Bob
Yes agreed at $500M. But someone like Tom, who does have massively good
credentials, could perhaps get $500,000, and perhaps that wisely spent
could get a fountain built. Without knowing how you arrive at $500M, it is
not possible for anyone to look at ways of shaving that cost.
This is not a cheap field to be doing things in ….
Bob
The Lovell Telescope at Jodrell Bank in the UK was built on a shoestring
budget. It was at the time the world's largest steerable radio telephone.
Half a century later only 2 larger ones have been built.
Maybe I am too nieve.
Dave.
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In message 619617E1-AA26-4EB7-B73E-042F22912263@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes:
I guess the question then would be:
Is a H Maser that runs 6.6 x 10^-12 at 1 second worth the trouble?
I would say absolutely not.
All things considered, I think a trapped-ion type standard would
be both much more feasible and much more worth it.
Heck, just getting an optical comb working would be awesome...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.